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Old 07-29-2008, 05:56 PM
Mario Vukelic
 
Default OT: Thunderbird on the installer CD

On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 11:39 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
> Now my goal is to get *Ubuntu* to all have Thunderbird.

Keep in mind that practically all space on the Desktop CD is currently
used, so besides providing convinding arguments in favor of including
thunderbird, you will also need to successfully argue the case for
leaving out other packages.

The thunderbird package size is ca. 11 MB on i386 and 12 MB on amd64,
that's quite significant.


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Old 07-29-2008, 06:48 PM
Karl Larsen
 
Default OT: Thunderbird on the installer CD

Mario Vukelic wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 11:39 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
>
>> Now my goal is to get *Ubuntu* to all have Thunderbird.
>>
>
> Keep in mind that practically all space on the Desktop CD is currently
> used, so besides providing convinding arguments in favor of including
> thunderbird, you will also need to successfully argue the case for
> leaving out other packages.
>
> The thunderbird package size is ca. 11 MB on i386 and 12 MB on amd64,
> that's quite significant.
>
>
>
NO! I do not care to have Thunderbird as a default email client. I
do care the Ubuntu has evolution it's default email client. I would have
both a d/l choice.

Karl


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Old 07-29-2008, 06:56 PM
Mario Vukelic
 
Default OT: Thunderbird on the installer CD

On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 12:48 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
> NO! I do not care to have Thunderbird as a default email client. I
> do care the Ubuntu has evolution it's default email client. I would
> have both a d/l choice.

Right, I remember now that you said that at the start. Sorry for that.

Though I do wonder about the wisdom of not having a GUI mail client
installed by default at all. IMHO, you'd at the very least have to
provide a mechanism that facilitates download of either evo or TB as
soon as the user tries to set up email.

This of course adds some complexity, both in code and for the user (who
has to answer one more question at least, and Ubuntu does not like
questions a lot)


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Old 07-29-2008, 07:07 PM
Leif Gregory
 
Default OT: Thunderbird on the installer CD

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:48:18 -0600
Karl Larsen <k5di@zianet.com> wrote:

> NO! I do not care to have Thunderbird as a default email client.
> I do care the Ubuntu has evolution it's default email client. I would
> have both a d/l choice.

I think you're going to have a hard time selling that idea. Back up and
forget what we know about Linux on the desktop and consider it from the
perspective of a new convert.

First they read up on reviews maybe and see that Ubutnu doesn't come
with a MUA out of the box, or some friend gave them an Ubuntu CD and
they installed it. I think, in today's world that a default MUA is
something people would expect.

"What do you mean there's no e-mail? What the hell else is it missing?".

It doesn't matter that they can go out and pick any one of their
choosing to install, and that installation is a snap, all they're going
to see is a crippled desktop experience.

Now, take it further. Do they stop including F-Spot, or Rhythmbox, or
whatever too because people choose to use DigiKam or Amarok or
Exhaile (sp?) instead of the default (an example, no statistical
inference made <grin>).

You also stated in another post:

"Interesting Ken. I was not aware that Xubuntu comes with Thunderbird!
Now my goal is to get *Ubuntu* to all have Thunderbird."

So which is it? You want *buntu to have Thunderbird by default or not.
You're going to have to have clear objectives in this mission of yours
if you ever have any hope of making a convincing argument.

Is it more that you just don't want Evolution as the default? If so,
then maybe you want to attack the issue from another angle such as
dependencies in Gnome to portions of Evolution libraries.

Uhhhm, but isn't that the point of Linux? Being able to leverage
existing libraries and not re-invent the wheel every time?


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Old 07-29-2008, 07:39 PM
Mario Vukelic
 
Default OT: Thunderbird on the installer CD

On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 13:07 -0600, Leif Gregory wrote:
> If so, then maybe you want to attack the issue from another angle such
> as dependencies in Gnome to portions of Evolution libraries.

To give some data on the extent of dependencies on "evolution" as such.

"apt-cache rdepends foo" prints a list of packages that foo is *depended
on*. This, however, includes not only hard dependencies, but also softer
relationships, like "recommends". Note, for example, that the list below
includes ubuntu-desktop, but the dependencies of this package show that
it only *recommends* evolution.

I absolutely do not see any undue dependency on evolution. Most of these
packages are intended to work with evolution, so pose no problem if they
*depend* on it (or rather *recommend* or *suggest* it, as is often
actually the case). Others recommend _either_ evolution or thunderbird

apt-cache rdepends evolution
evolution
Reverse Depends:
libpisync0
ubuntu-desktop
tomboy
openoffice.org-evolution
nautilus-sendto
nautilus-sendto
libpisync1
libpisock9
libgtkhtml-editor-common
evolution-plugins
evolution-exchange
evolution-exchange
evolution-exchange
evolution-dev
evolution-dbg
evolution-data-server
evolution-common
evolution-common
contact-lookup-applet
screenlets
|phpicalendar
mail-notification-evolution
gnome-osd
gnome-do-plugins
gnome-desktop-environment
evolution-plugins-experimental
evolution-jescs
evolution-jescs
evolution-jescs

Of course, some gnome applications depend on evolution-data-server and
the like, but the reason to put these evolution modules into separate
programs and packages was _exactly_ to remove Gnome dependencies on
evolution itself, and allow high interaction between the desktop
components (e.g., the calendar applet on the panel can show calendar
entries from evolution) while still providing choice in selecting an
MUA.


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Old 07-29-2008, 07:45 PM
David Meireles
 
Default OT: Thunderbird on the installer CD

Besides, I'll loose the calendar and contacts integration with the
desktop out-of-the-box, like I have? Sorry, I don't buy that... I've
jumped from Thunderbird to Evolution because I needed something more
powerfull for my usage. Don't get me wrong, I like thunderbird, and when
not working in Linux, that's what I use, but in Linux, Evolution has all
I need, including my phone's contacts Sync.

Leif Gregory escreveu:
> On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:48:18 -0600
> Karl Larsen <k5di@zianet.com> wrote:
>
>
>> NO! I do not care to have Thunderbird as a default email client.
>> I do care the Ubuntu has evolution it's default email client. I would
>> have both a d/l choice.
>>
>
> I think you're going to have a hard time selling that idea. Back up and
> forget what we know about Linux on the desktop and consider it from the
> perspective of a new convert.
>
> First they read up on reviews maybe and see that Ubutnu doesn't come
> with a MUA out of the box, or some friend gave them an Ubuntu CD and
> they installed it. I think, in today's world that a default MUA is
> something people would expect.
>
> "What do you mean there's no e-mail? What the hell else is it missing?".
>
> It doesn't matter that they can go out and pick any one of their
> choosing to install, and that installation is a snap, all they're going
> to see is a crippled desktop experience.
>
> Now, take it further. Do they stop including F-Spot, or Rhythmbox, or
> whatever too because people choose to use DigiKam or Amarok or
> Exhaile (sp?) instead of the default (an example, no statistical
> inference made <grin>).
>
> You also stated in another post:
>
> "Interesting Ken. I was not aware that Xubuntu comes with Thunderbird!
> Now my goal is to get *Ubuntu* to all have Thunderbird."
>
> So which is it? You want *buntu to have Thunderbird by default or not.
> You're going to have to have clear objectives in this mission of yours
> if you ever have any hope of making a convincing argument.
>
> Is it more that you just don't want Evolution as the default? If so,
> then maybe you want to attack the issue from another angle such as
> dependencies in Gnome to portions of Evolution libraries.
>
> Uhhhm, but isn't that the point of Linux? Being able to leverage
> existing libraries and not re-invent the wheel every time?
>
>
>

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Old 07-29-2008, 08:00 PM
Mario Vukelic
 
Default OT: Thunderbird on the installer CD

On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 20:45 +0100, David Meireles wrote:
> Besides, I'll loose the calendar and contacts integration with the
> desktop out-of-the-box, like I have?

You can safely uninstall the evolution package, as long as you leave
evolution-data-server and evolution-data-server-common installed. The
integration will still work.

Oh yeah, and this will really be my last post on the subject, sorry
everyone for the long OT thread to which I contributed. In my first
reply I suggested to Karl that Brainstorm is a better place for this,
and lo and behold! there are already entries similar to his suggestion:
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/3597/


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Old 07-29-2008, 08:00 PM
Karl Larsen
 
Default OT: Thunderbird on the installer CD

Mario Vukelic wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 12:48 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
>
>> NO! I do not care to have Thunderbird as a default email client. I
>> do care the Ubuntu has evolution it's default email client. I would
>> have both a d/l choice.
>>
>
> Right, I remember now that you said that at the start. Sorry for that.
>
> Though I do wonder about the wisdom of not having a GUI mail client
> installed by default at all. IMHO, you'd at the very least have to
> provide a mechanism that facilitates download of either evo or TB as
> soon as the user tries to set up email.
>
> This of course adds some complexity, both in code and for the user (who
> has to answer one more question at least, and Ubuntu does not like
> questions a lot)
>
>
>
Well, there is some way the loader figures out I have a nVidia video
card. And the first boot it comes up and you select a few things and
then it shows up with an odd thing to click which says it will d/l the
non-ubuntu nVidia driver software. It does and when a kernel update
comes it remembers to bring along the nVidia software as well.

How about a first choice when clicked that will d/l either evolution
or thunderbird. It is quick and easy and lets you decide which your using.

Karl


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Linux User
#450462 http://counter.li.org.
PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7


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Old 07-29-2008, 08:12 PM
Mario Vukelic
 
Default OT: Thunderbird on the installer CD

On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 14:00 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
>
> How about a first choice when clicked that will d/l either
> evolution or thunderbird. It is quick and easy and lets you decide
> which your using.

Yes, possibly. But again, this list is not the place for these kinds of
discussions. They are offtopic and not likely to trigger any action by
the developers. I just replied to another mail to David Meireles, where
you will find a link to a Brainshare discussion about the default status
of Evolution. You are more likely to be heard if you contribute there.
Or find out how to create blueprints and work out the details of your
suggestion: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid


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Old 07-29-2008, 09:15 PM
David Meireles
 
Default OT: Thunderbird on the installer CD

But I don't intend to remove Evolution, it's my prefered mail and
calendar application I was saying that I like the desktop
integration, out-of-the-box, and don't intend to loose it or have to
install pacakges to have it, when I've benn having it since Dapper, and
in (almost???) every Gnome based Distro. Don't get me wrong, not intend
to start a war evolution vs thunderbird, they's both good, and I totally
understand that are people that prefer thunder over evo, but I think
that, since evo is soooooo integrated in Gnome, it wouldn't be good to
remove it from the default install.

Oh, and one more reason why I think evo should be in default install...
A lot of Windows users use Microsoft Outlook for their e-mail and
calendar, and when they give linux a try, they expect to find a similar
tool. That happened to me on a lot of clients I've migrated, they all
started working in evo with no problem! But, if it's someone that in
Windows uses Outlook Express, I believe that Evo or Thunder won't make
much diference because it would be just e-mailing...

Mario Vukelic escreveu:
> On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 20:45 +0100, David Meireles wrote:
>
>> Besides, I'll loose the calendar and contacts integration with the
>> desktop out-of-the-box, like I have?
>>
>
> You can safely uninstall the evolution package, as long as you leave
> evolution-data-server and evolution-data-server-common installed. The
> integration will still work.
>
> Oh yeah, and this will really be my last post on the subject, sorry
> everyone for the long OT thread to which I contributed. In my first
> reply I suggested to Karl that Brainstorm is a better place for this,
> and lo and behold! there are already entries similar to his suggestion:
> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/3597/
>
>
>

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