Linux Archive

Linux Archive (http://www.linux-archive.org/)
-   Ubuntu User (http://www.linux-archive.org/ubuntu-user/)
-   -   8.04 networking seems awfully broken. (http://www.linux-archive.org/ubuntu-user/130707-8-04-networking-seems-awfully-broken.html)

Grant Edwards 07-24-2008 08:29 AM

8.04 networking seems awfully broken.
 
I keep reading reviews about how Ubuntu "just works", so I
decided to give it a try by installing Ubuntu 8.04 as an
alternative OS on a laptop belonging to somebody who normally
uses Windows, but would be willing to give Linux a try.

I'd have to say that the networking support seems to quite a
mess (at least compared to other distros I use):

1) There's a daemon called avahi-autoipd that keeps starting
up and f*&king up the network configuration. I configured
the interfaces to use DHCP. That means that if there's no
response from a DHCP server, then keep trying until there
_is_ a response from a DHCP server. I don't recall
checking a box that said "only use DHCP until you get
bored and want to pull an IP address out of your ass".

I've never seen even a single network that uses link-local
IP discovery. I'm sure it's cool in theory, but why
that's enabled by default is beyond understanding.

Disabling it in the services applet doesn't help either --
you've got to fire up a terminal window and apt-get remove
the package.

2) Firmware for the the wireless chipset had to be manually
downloaded, extracted (using a utility that had to be
built from a source tarball), and copied into
/lib/firmware.

3) I've configured the wireless interface to use WPA, but
wpa_supplicant doesn't start on boot-up. You've got to
fire up a terminal and do "/etc/init.d/network restart" to
get wpa_supplicant running.

4) Once wpa_supplicant is running, the network management
applet seems incapable of configuring wpa_supplicant with
the password. It's unable to associate until one fires up
a terminal, starts wpa_cli, and sets the password
manually.

End result: a waste of about 8 hours of my time and a black eye
for Linux.

--
Grant




--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users

"Mario Spinthiras" 07-24-2008 09:34 AM

8.04 networking seems awfully broken.
 
I would suggest using wicd a try instead of NetworkManager. NM gave me woes which I was not willing to go any further to fix. Wicd replaces NM out of the box. The gui might not be the same (nice and funky) but wicd seemed like a better choice. Have it running for about 5 days now and its very nice.


Regards,
Mario

On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> wrote:

I keep reading reviews about how Ubuntu "just works", so I

decided to give it a try by installing Ubuntu 8.04 as an

alternative OS on a laptop belonging to somebody who normally

uses Windows, but would be willing to give Linux a try.



I'd have to say that the networking support seems to quite a

mess (at least compared to other distros I use):



*1) There's a daemon called avahi-autoipd that keeps starting

* * up and f*&king up the network configuration. *I configured

* * the interfaces to use DHCP. *That means that if there's no

* * response from a DHCP server, then keep trying until there

* * _is_ a response from a DHCP server. *I don't recall

* * checking a box that said "only use DHCP until you get

* * bored and want to pull an IP address out of your ass".



* * I've never seen even a single network that uses link-local

* * IP discovery. *I'm sure it's cool in theory, but why

* * that's enabled by default is beyond understanding.



* * Disabling it in the services applet doesn't help either --

* * you've got to fire up a terminal window and apt-get remove

* * the package.



*2) Firmware for the the wireless chipset had to be manually

* * downloaded, extracted (using a utility that had to be

* * built from a source tarball), and copied into

* * /lib/firmware.



*3) I've configured the wireless interface to use WPA, but

* * wpa_supplicant doesn't start on boot-up. *You've got to

* * fire up a terminal and do "/etc/init.d/network restart" to

* * get wpa_supplicant running.



*4) Once wpa_supplicant is running, the network management

* * applet seems incapable of configuring wpa_supplicant with

* * the password. It's unable to associate until one fires up

* * a terminal, starts wpa_cli, and sets the password

* * manually.



End result: a waste of about 8 hours of my time and a black eye

for Linux.



--

Grant









--

ubuntu-users mailing list

ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com

Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users



--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users

Karl Larsen 07-24-2008 12:01 PM

8.04 networking seems awfully broken.
 
Grant Edwards wrote:
> I keep reading reviews about how Ubuntu "just works", so I
> decided to give it a try by installing Ubuntu 8.04 as an
> alternative OS on a laptop belonging to somebody who normally
> uses Windows, but would be willing to give Linux a try.
>
> I'd have to say that the networking support seems to quite a
> mess (at least compared to other distros I use):
>
>
Which other distros have you loaded on this computer?


> 1) There's a daemon called avahi-autoipd that keeps starting
> up and f*&king up the network configuration. I configured
> the interfaces to use DHCP. That means that if there's no
> response from a DHCP server, then keep trying until there
> _is_ a response from a DHCP server. I don't recall
> checking a box that said "only use DHCP until you get
> bored and want to pull an IP address out of your ass".
>
>
You seem to have an issue with the loader software. Was it too
simple for an expert like yourself? As I recall the network part of the
loader was preset and you just hit Enter and go on.
> I've never seen even a single network that uses link-local
> IP discovery. I'm sure it's cool in theory, but why
> that's enabled by default is beyond understanding.
>
>
Well don't stop there. Explain what link-local IP discovery is? I
didn't know Hardy had any.

> Disabling it in the services applet doesn't help either --
> you've got to fire up a terminal window and apt-get remove
> the package.
>
>
Now that is a really stupid thing to do!

> 2) Firmware for the the wireless chipset had to be manually
> downloaded, extracted (using a utility that had to be
> built from a source tarball), and copied into
> /lib/firmware.
>

Which chipset would that be?
> 3) I've configured the wireless interface to use WPA, but
> wpa_supplicant doesn't start on boot-up. You've got to
> fire up a terminal and do "/etc/init.d/network restart" to
> get wpa_supplicant running.
>
>
Yes and that is really hard to do isn't it. Poor boy.
> 4) Once wpa_supplicant is running, the network management
> applet seems incapable of configuring wpa_supplicant with
> the password. It's unable to associate until one fires up
> a terminal, starts wpa_cli, and sets the password
> manually.
>
>
Gosh a password too? What kind of WiFi are you stealing? Maybe this
is the whole problem. If you had just loaded Hardy and rebooted and did
the little easy things and then let it just sit turned on for 30
minutes, it might have just started working. Mine did.
> End result: a waste of about 8 hours of my time and a black eye
> for Linux.
>
>
From my experience with Hardy it had zero problem with the network.
On this computer it found the ethernet card and worked. On my laptop it
loaded and after a few minutes it discovered WiFi and worked.


Karl

--

Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
Linux User
#450462 http://counter.li.org.
PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7


--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users

"Jason Crain" 07-24-2008 12:45 PM

8.04 networking seems awfully broken.
 
On Thu, July 24, 2008 7:01 am, Karl Larsen wrote:
> Well don't stop there. Explain what link-local IP discovery is? I
> didn't know Hardy had any.

link-local is where the computer fails to find a dhcp provided ip address,
so it chooses one in the 169.X.X.X range. It is meant to be a way for
networking to work without a central server handing out addresses. I have
never seen it work properly, either.

> Now that is a really stupid thing to do!

> Yes and that is really hard to do isn't it. Poor boy.

> Gosh a password too? What kind of WiFi are you stealing? Maybe this
> is the whole problem. If you had just loaded Hardy and rebooted and did
> the little easy things and then let it just sit turned on for 30
> minutes, it might have just started working. Mine did.

Can we remove Larsen from this list, already?

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users

Karl Larsen 07-24-2008 01:39 PM

8.04 networking seems awfully broken.
 
Jason Crain wrote:
> On Thu, July 24, 2008 7:01 am, Karl Larsen wrote:
>
>> Well don't stop there. Explain what link-local IP discovery is? I
>> didn't know Hardy had any.
>>
>
> link-local is where the computer fails to find a dhcp provided ip address,
> so it chooses one in the 169.X.X.X range. It is meant to be a way for
> networking to work without a central server handing out addresses. I have
> never seen it work properly, either.
>
>
>> Now that is a really stupid thing to do!
>>
>
>
>> Yes and that is really hard to do isn't it. Poor boy.
>>
>
>
>> Gosh a password too? What kind of WiFi are you stealing? Maybe this
>> is the whole problem. If you had just loaded Hardy and rebooted and did
>> the little easy things and then let it just sit turned on for 30
>> minutes, it might have just started working. Mine did.
>>
>
> Can we remove Larsen from this list, already?
>
>
Mr. Crain does a wild miss quote of what I wrote and calls for my
removal from this list. I think a person who is this small and
vindictive should be one who is removed.

Karl


--

Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
Linux User
#450462 http://counter.li.org.
PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7


--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users

Derek Broughton 07-24-2008 01:54 PM

8.04 networking seems awfully broken.
 
Grant Edwards wrote:

> I'd have to say that the networking support seems to quite a
> mess (at least compared to other distros I use):
>
> 1) There's a daemon called avahi-autoipd that keeps starting
> up and f*&king up the network configuration. I configured

A common misconception. avahi doesn't mess up the network - it gets invoked
if the network is already broken.

> the interfaces to use DHCP. That means that if there's no
> response from a DHCP server, then keep trying until there
> _is_ a response from a DHCP server.

Why would you think that? In fact, avahi is supposed to do exactly what
Windows does - assign a 169.*.*.* address when no DHCP is available. ALL
DHCP client's time out eventually. Probably, in /etc/dhcp3/dhclient.conf
you can set a longer timeout. It will almost certainly merely delay the
point at which you discover your network is broken.

> I've never seen even a single network that uses link-local
> IP discovery. I'm sure it's cool in theory, but why
> that's enabled by default is beyond understanding.

It's enabled by default because it's enabled by default in Windows, and
people with heterogeneous LANs want to be able to connect without a DHCP
server.

> 2) Firmware for the the wireless chipset had to be manually
> downloaded, extracted (using a utility that had to be
> built from a source tarball), and copied into
> /lib/firmware.

Yeah? So complain to the vendors who won't provide let Linux distros
distribute firmware, or get a decent Linux-supported wifi.

> 3) I've configured the wireless interface to use WPA, but
> wpa_supplicant doesn't start on boot-up. You've got to
> fire up a terminal and do "/etc/init.d/network restart" to
> get wpa_supplicant running.

Or just use the default Network manager, which handles wpa-supplicant
transparently.

> 4) Once wpa_supplicant is running, the network management
> applet seems incapable of configuring wpa_supplicant with
> the password. It's unable to associate until one fires up
> a terminal, starts wpa_cli, and sets the password
> manually.
>
> End result: a waste of about 8 hours of my time and a black eye
> for Linux.

And you expect sympathy?
--
derek


--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users

Grant Edwards 07-24-2008 02:28 PM

8.04 networking seems awfully broken.
 
On 2008-07-24, Karl Larsen <k5di@zianet.com> wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>> I keep reading reviews about how Ubuntu "just works", so I
>> decided to give it a try by installing Ubuntu 8.04 as an
>> alternative OS on a laptop belonging to somebody who normally
>> uses Windows, but would be willing to give Linux a try.
>>
>> I'd have to say that the networking support seems to quite a
>> mess (at least compared to other distros I use):
>>
>>
> Which other distros have you loaded on this computer?

None.

>> 1) There's a daemon called avahi-autoipd that keeps starting
>> up and f*&king up the network configuration. I configured
>> the interfaces to use DHCP. That means that if there's no
>> response from a DHCP server, then keep trying until there
>> _is_ a response from a DHCP server. I don't recall
>> checking a box that said "only use DHCP until you get
>> bored and want to pull an IP address out of your ass".
>>
>>
> You seem to have an issue with the loader software. Was it too
>
> simple for an expert like yourself? As I recall the network part of the
> loader was preset and you just hit Enter and go on.

I've no clue what you're talking about. Other distros (e.g.
Gentoo) typically provide "firmware" packages that alleviate
the need for the user to manually download files, binary
extracters, etc.

>> I've never seen even a single network that uses link-local
>> IP discovery. I'm sure it's cool in theory, but why
>> that's enabled by default is beyond understanding.
>
> Well don't stop there. Explain what link-local IP discovery
> is? I didn't know Hardy had any.

Google it, dude.

>> Disabling it in the services applet doesn't help either --
>> you've got to fire up a terminal window and apt-get remove
>> the package.
>>
> Now that is a really stupid thing to do!

Why is that? It's seemed (according to the forums) to be the
only easy way to prevent the autoipd from seizing control of
interfaces. And it seems to have sovled that problem.

>> 2) Firmware for the the wireless chipset had to be manually
>> downloaded, extracted (using a utility that had to be
>> built from a source tarball), and copied into
>> /lib/firmware.
>
> Which chipset would that be?

Broadcom 4306

>> 3) I've configured the wireless interface to use WPA, but
>> wpa_supplicant doesn't start on boot-up. You've got to
>> fire up a terminal and do "/etc/init.d/network restart" to
>> get wpa_supplicant running.
>
> Yes and that is really hard to do isn't it. Poor boy.

It's something that other distros seem to be able to do
automatically on startup.

>> 4) Once wpa_supplicant is running, the network management
>> applet seems incapable of configuring wpa_supplicant with
>> the password. It's unable to associate until one fires up
>> a terminal, starts wpa_cli, and sets the password
>> manually.
>
> Gosh a password too? What kind of WiFi are you stealing?

What is your damange? It's my own network. Entering the
password via the network config applet doesn't work. Entering
it via wpa_cli does. That means the network manager applet is
broken.

I'm not going to ask a lifelong Windows user to spend a
half-hour with a bash prompt typing commands everytime she
want's wireless networking to start.

> Maybe this is the whole problem. If you had just loaded Hardy
> and rebooted and did the little easy things and then let it
> just sit turned on for 30 minutes, it might have just started
> working. Mine did.

Having to wait 30 minutes for a network interfaces is _not_
"working".

>> End result: a waste of about 8 hours of my time and a black eye
>> for Linux.
>
> From my experience with Hardy it had zero problem with the
> network. On this computer it found the ethernet card and
> worked. On my laptop it loaded and after a few minutes it
> discovered WiFi and worked.

Well bully for you. I found plenty of other postings in the
Forum complaining about the above problems, so it's not just
me.

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! I invented skydiving
at in 1989!
visi.com


--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users

"Jason Crain" 07-24-2008 02:28 PM

8.04 networking seems awfully broken.
 
On Thu, July 24, 2008 8:39 am, Karl Larsen wrote:
> Jason Crain wrote:
>> On Thu, July 24, 2008 7:01 am, Karl Larsen wrote:
>>> Now that is a really stupid thing to do!
>>>
>>> Yes and that is really hard to do isn't it. Poor boy.
>>>
>>> Gosh a password too? What kind of WiFi are you stealing? Maybe this
>>> is the whole problem. If you had just loaded Hardy and rebooted and did
>>> the little easy things and then let it just sit turned on for 30
>>> minutes, it might have just started working. Mine did.
>>
>> Can we remove Larsen from this list, already?
>
> Mr. Crain does a wild miss quote of what I wrote and calls for my
> removal from this list. I think a person who is this small and
> vindictive should be one who is removed.

The original post is still there, if anyone cares to look. My point is
that no matter the tone of the original post, ridiculing the poster and
accusing him of stealing WiFi is inapropriate. All of your other messages
seem similarly unhelpful.

I do not wish to start a flamewar, so this will be my last post on the topic.

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users

Grant Edwards 07-24-2008 02:33 PM

8.04 networking seems awfully broken.
 
On 2008-07-24, Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> I'd have to say that the networking support seems to quite a
>> mess (at least compared to other distros I use):
>>
>> 1) There's a daemon called avahi-autoipd that keeps starting
>> up and f*&king up the network configuration. I configured
>
> A common misconception. avahi doesn't mess up the network -
> it gets invoked if the network is already broken.

So when the cable gets plugged in, avahi will give up control
and an address will be retreived via DHCP?

>> the interfaces to use DHCP. That means that if there's no
>> response from a DHCP server, then keep trying until there
>> _is_ a response from a DHCP server.
>
> Why would you think that? In fact, avahi is supposed to do exactly what
> Windows does



> - assign a 169.*.*.* address when no DHCP is available. ALL
> DHCP client's time out eventually.

Perhaps that's true, but on my Gentoo systems the DHCP client
isn't started until the link is up.

> Probably, in /etc/dhcp3/dhclient.conf you can set a longer
> timeout. It will almost certainly merely delay the point at
> which you discover your network is broken.
>
>> I've never seen even a single network that uses link-local
>> IP discovery. I'm sure it's cool in theory, but why
>> that's enabled by default is beyond understanding.
>
> It's enabled by default because it's enabled by default in
> Windows, and people with heterogeneous LANs want to be able to
> connect without a DHCP server.

I guess that's news to me -- I've never seen a network that
worked like that.

>> 2) Firmware for the the wireless chipset had to be manually
>> downloaded, extracted (using a utility that had to be
>> built from a source tarball), and copied into
>> /lib/firmware.
>
> Yeah? So complain to the vendors who won't provide let Linux
> distros distribute firmware, or get a decent Linux-supported
> wifi.

I guess that's an option. Or I could switch to a distro that
does provide support for things like that.

>> 3) I've configured the wireless interface to use WPA, but
>> wpa_supplicant doesn't start on boot-up. You've got to
>> fire up a terminal and do "/etc/init.d/network restart" to
>> get wpa_supplicant running.
>
> Or just use the default Network manager, which handles
> wpa-supplicant transparently.

No, it doesn't. wpa_supplicant simply doesn't run when the
system boots. If I restart the network, it does.

>> 4) Once wpa_supplicant is running, the network management
>> applet seems incapable of configuring wpa_supplicant with
>> the password. It's unable to associate until one fires up
>> a terminal, starts wpa_cli, and sets the password
>> manually.

No response for that one eh?

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! RELATIVES!!
at
visi.com


--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users

Grant Edwards 07-24-2008 02:49 PM

8.04 networking seems awfully broken.
 
On 2008-07-24, Jason Crain <jason@bluetree.ath.cx> wrote:
> On Thu, July 24, 2008 8:39 am, Karl Larsen wrote:
>> Jason Crain wrote:
>>> On Thu, July 24, 2008 7:01 am, Karl Larsen wrote:
>>>> Now that is a really stupid thing to do!
>>>>
>>>> Yes and that is really hard to do isn't it. Poor boy.
>>>>
>>>> Gosh a password too? What kind of WiFi are you stealing? Maybe this
>>>> is the whole problem. If you had just loaded Hardy and rebooted and did
>>>> the little easy things and then let it just sit turned on for 30
>>>> minutes, it might have just started working. Mine did.
>>>
>>> Can we remove Larsen from this list, already?
>>
>> Mr. Crain does a wild miss quote of what I wrote and calls for my
>> removal from this list. I think a person who is this small and
>> vindictive should be one who is removed.
>
> The original post is still there, if anyone cares to look. My
> point is that no matter the tone of the original post,

For which I should probably apologize. I'd been beating my
head against the wall for hours trying to get wireless
networking to work. (I never did get it to work unless I
manually restarted the network and then manually set the
password via wap_cli.)

The problem with wpa_supplicant not starting seems to be a
chronic problem in Ubunto (I've found bug reports on it going
back 3 years). I don't even know where to start trying to
troublshoot the network manager's inability to set the WPA
password. The machine is due back in it's owner's hands today,
so I'm giving up. I'm going to wipe the parition, restore the
XP MBR and tell the computer's owner to stick with XP. :/

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! I am a traffic light,
at and Alan Ginzberg kidnapped
visi.com my laundry in 1927!


--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:36 AM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.