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Old 07-24-2008, 02:58 PM
"Cybe R. Wizard"
 
Default 8.04 networking seems awfully broken.

Karl Larsen <k5di@zianet.com> said:
> Now that is a really stupid thing to do!

Considering your past inability to give even remotely good advice that
is quite funny.

But I've laughed enough now.

Goodbye, Karl.

Cybe R. Wizard
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Old 07-24-2008, 03:06 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default 8.04 networking seems awfully broken.

Grant Edwards wrote:

> I've no clue what you're talking about. Other distros (e.g.
> Gentoo) typically provide "firmware" packages that alleviate
> the need for the user to manually download files, binary
> extracters, etc.

Ubuntu does that where they're legally permitted to.
>
>>> I've never seen even a single network that uses link-local
>>> IP discovery. I'm sure it's cool in theory, but why
>>> that's enabled by default is beyond understanding.
>>
>> Well don't stop there. Explain what link-local IP discovery
>> is? I didn't know Hardy had any.
>
> Google it, dude.
>
>>> Disabling it in the services applet doesn't help either --
>>> you've got to fire up a terminal window and apt-get remove
>>> the package.
>>>
>> Now that is a really stupid thing to do!
>
> Why is that?

Never mind Karl, he's practically always wrong. There's no reason most of
us can't simply remove avahi, but it won't help your situation.

>>> 2) Firmware for the the wireless chipset had to be manually
>>> downloaded, extracted (using a utility that had to be
>>> built from a source tarball), and copied into
>>> /lib/firmware.
>>
>> Which chipset would that be?
>
> Broadcom 4306

For which, I know from experience, it gives you explicit instructions what
you need to do. The firmware is not distributed by Ubuntu because it can't
legally be distributed - and those instructions tell you that, too. That
said, it doesn't require _manually_ building from a source tarball.

>> Maybe this is the whole problem. If you had just loaded Hardy
>> and rebooted and did the little easy things and then let it
>> just sit turned on for 30 minutes, it might have just started
>> working. Mine did.
>
> Having to wait 30 minutes for a network interfaces is _not_
> "working".

The first time only - but it does require that you get the firmware, first.
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Old 07-24-2008, 03:18 PM
Grant Edwards
 
Default 8.04 networking seems awfully broken.

On 2008-07-24, Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> I've no clue what you're talking about. Other distros (e.g.
>> Gentoo) typically provide "firmware" packages that alleviate
>> the need for the user to manually download files, binary
>> extracters, etc.
>
> Ubuntu does that where they're legally permitted to.

I guess that's the difference between a binary distribution
like Ubuntu and a meta-distribution like Gentoo. Under Gentoo,
ebuilds don't contain firmware any more than they contain
program binaries -- they contain shellscripts that know how to
download and build binaries (or firmware). That way Gentoo can
provide ebuilds for proprietary drivers, wireless firmware, etc.

>> Broadcom 4306
>
> For which, I know from experience, it gives you explicit instructions what
> you need to do.

I found recipes in forum postings. Was the installer supposed
to do something?

> The firmware is not distributed by Ubuntu because it can't
> legally be distributed - and those instructions tell you that,
> too. That said, it doesn't require _manually_ building from a
> source tarball.
>
>>> Maybe this is the whole problem. If you had just loaded Hardy
>>> and rebooted and did the little easy things and then let it
>>> just sit turned on for 30 minutes, it might have just started
>>> working. Mine did.
>>
>> Having to wait 30 minutes for a network interfaces is _not_
>> "working".
>
> The first time only - but it does require that you get the
> firmware, first.

I'm a bit baffled, what's the 30-minute wait for? I've
selected a network and entered a password, why wait for 30
minutes?

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Old 07-24-2008, 03:23 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default 8.04 networking seems awfully broken.

Grant Edwards wrote:

> On 2008-07-24, Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>> Grant Edwards wrote:
>>
>>> I'd have to say that the networking support seems to quite a
>>> mess (at least compared to other distros I use):
>>>
>>> 1) There's a daemon called avahi-autoipd that keeps starting
>>> up and f*&king up the network configuration. I configured
>>
>> A common misconception. avahi doesn't mess up the network -
>> it gets invoked if the network is already broken.
>
> So when the cable gets plugged in, avahi will give up control
> and an address will be retreived via DHCP?

If your DHCP server is working, yes.
>
>>> the interfaces to use DHCP. That means that if there's no
>>> response from a DHCP server, then keep trying until there
>>> _is_ a response from a DHCP server.
>>
>> Why would you think that? In fact, avahi is supposed to do exactly what
>> Windows does
>> - assign a 169.*.*.* address when no DHCP is available. ALL
>> DHCP client's time out eventually.
>
> Perhaps that's true, but on my Gentoo systems the DHCP client
> isn't started until the link is up.

The link is "up" as far as the O/S knows when the wireless interface is
active. It promptly starts a DHCP dialog. If you have a power button for
your wireless, turn it off, then watch the log when you turn it on.

>> It's enabled by default because it's enabled by default in
>> Windows, and people with heterogeneous LANs want to be able to
>> connect without a DHCP server.
>
> I guess that's news to me -- I've never seen a network that
> worked like that.

Sure you have. Find a windows system, connect it to a network with no DHCP
server - you'll get a 169.*.*.* address. You can argue that avahi gets it
wrong - I have no idea if it's right - but it is definitely _trying_ to
emulate Windows Zeroconf.

>> Yeah? So complain to the vendors who won't provide let Linux
>> distros distribute firmware, or get a decent Linux-supported
>> wifi.
>
> I guess that's an option. Or I could switch to a distro that
> does provide support for things like that.

Of course you can. Different distros take different interpretations of law,
but in Canonical's legal staff's opinion, distributing Broadcom firmware is
illegal. Personally, I believe you shouldn't install software on random
hardware - if you want to install Windows, you don't do it on hardware that
doesn't support Windows, and when I want to install Linux, I make sure that
there are simple solutions to handle all the hardware, or buy new hardware
that _is_ supported (like Intel wireless).

> No, it doesn't. wpa_supplicant simply doesn't run when the
> system boots. If I restart the network, it does.

It's started from Network Manager, so you need to see what happened when
Network manager started (it's started from dbus, not /etc/init.d)

>>> 4) Once wpa_supplicant is running, the network management
>>> applet seems incapable of configuring wpa_supplicant with
>>> the password. It's unable to associate until one fires up
>>> a terminal, starts wpa_cli, and sets the password
>>> manually.
>
> No response for that one eh?

I did - but it wouldn't be useful. I use Kubuntu, you're using Ubuntu
(Gnome), and I know that's handled by a particular gnome application, but
not which (gnome-keyring-daemon ?).
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Old 07-24-2008, 03:38 PM
Karl Larsen
 
Default 8.04 networking seems awfully broken.

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2008-07-24, Jason Crain <jason@bluetree.ath.cx> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, July 24, 2008 8:39 am, Karl Larsen wrote:
>>
>>> Jason Crain wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, July 24, 2008 7:01 am, Karl Larsen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Now that is a really stupid thing to do!
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes and that is really hard to do isn't it. Poor boy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gosh a password too? What kind of WiFi are you stealing? Maybe this
>>>>> is the whole problem. If you had just loaded Hardy and rebooted and did
>>>>> the little easy things and then let it just sit turned on for 30
>>>>> minutes, it might have just started working. Mine did.
>>>>>
>>>> Can we remove Larsen from this list, already?
>>>>
>>> Mr. Crain does a wild miss quote of what I wrote and calls for my
>>> removal from this list. I think a person who is this small and
>>> vindictive should be one who is removed.
>>>
>> The original post is still there, if anyone cares to look. My
>> point is that no matter the tone of the original post,
>>
>
> For which I should probably apologize. I'd been beating my
> head against the wall for hours trying to get wireless
> networking to work. (I never did get it to work unless I
> manually restarted the network and then manually set the
> password via wap_cli.)
>
> The problem with wpa_supplicant not starting seems to be a
> chronic problem in Ubunto (I've found bug reports on it going
> back 3 years). I don't even know where to start trying to
> troublshoot the network manager's inability to set the WPA
> password. The machine is due back in it's owner's hands today,
> so I'm giving up. I'm going to wipe the parition, restore the
> XP MBR and tell the computer's owner to stick with XP. :/
>
>
Well something is a problem for sure. My WiFi is WPA protected and
my laptop, when it decided to work asked for the password. I gave it and
clicked to use it and it still does. This with Gutsy and Hardy.

Karl


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Old 07-24-2008, 03:52 PM
Grant Edwards
 
Default 8.04 networking seems awfully broken.

On 2008-07-24, Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote:

>> Perhaps that's true, but on my Gentoo systems the DHCP client
>> isn't started until the link is up.
>
> The link is "up" as far as the O/S knows when the wireless
> interface is active.

I watched the syslog, and the DHCP client was attempting to
send requests on eth0 while the link was still down and was
attempting to send requests on wlan0 when it was down (not yet
associated).

When I did a "ps" I could see that the DHCP client was running
on wlan0, but wpa_supplicant wasn't, so the DHCP client was
timing out before the wireless adapter had was associated with
a WAP and was capable of transmitting a packet.

That just doesn't seem like the right thing to do.

>> I guess that's news to me -- I've never seen a network that
>> worked like that.
>
> Sure you have. Find a windows system, connect it to a network
> with no DHCP server - you'll get a 169.*.*.* address.

My point was that I've never been on a network where that's how
things were supposed to work (despite what Windows does). On
all of the networks I've ever seen, nodes where supposed to get
addresses via DHCP and were not supposed to do the zeroconf
thing.

> You can argue that avahi gets it wrong - I have no idea if
> it's right - but it is definitely _trying_ to emulate Windows
> Zeroconf.

I'm arguing that I didn't want zeroconf, could find no
indication that checking "use DHCP" meant "and use zeroconf",
and I couldn't find any way to disable it.

>> No, it doesn't. wpa_supplicant simply doesn't run when the
>> system boots. If I restart the network, it does.
>
> It's started from Network Manager, so you need to see what
> happened when Network manager started (it's started from dbus,
> not /etc/init.d)

So everytime you boot, you've got to bring up the network
manager and manually start-up wireless networking? I expected
the network manager save the configuration anywhere so that the
next time you boot, it would start the interface using the
previous configuration.

> I did - but it wouldn't be useful. I use Kubuntu, you're
> using Ubuntu (Gnome), and I know that's handled by a
> particular gnome application, but not which
> (gnome-keyring-daemon ?).

Going into the network manager and re-entering the password did
appear to start wpa_supplicant, but it still would never
actually assoicate until the password was entered via wpa_cli.

One of my guesses is that the network manager either can't
handle passwords containing spaces, or it can't handle long
passwords (20+ characters). Unfortunately, I don't have any
more time to spend troublshooting it.

--
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at assassinates Walter Slezak,
visi.com will Jodie Foster marry
Bonzo??


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Old 07-24-2008, 04:27 PM
Leif Gregory
 
Default 8.04 networking seems awfully broken.

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:18:50 +0000 (UTC)
Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> wrote:

> I'm a bit baffled, what's the 30-minute wait for? I've
> selected a network and entered a password, why wait for 30
> minutes?

I agree. I use my laptop to connect to four different wireless
networks (my own, my parents, my sister-in-laws, and my wife's office)
which are all WPA. The only one I ever have problems with is my wife's
office because it doesn't broadcast the SSID so I have to do a manual
config, but I still never have any problems with WPA and they always
connect up right away.

Never had to wait any longer than maybe 15 seconds and that's when
connecting to the wife's office after putting in the info.


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Old 07-24-2008, 05:09 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default 8.04 networking seems awfully broken.

Grant Edwards wrote:

> I found recipes in forum postings. Was the installer supposed
> to do something?

No. The "hardware drivers manager" does (jockey-kde in KDE and jockey-gtk
in Gnome), _after_ you start your desktop.
>
>> The firmware is not distributed by Ubuntu because it can't
>> legally be distributed - and those instructions tell you that,
>> too. That said, it doesn't require _manually_ building from a
>> source tarball.
>>
>>>> Maybe this is the whole problem. If you had just loaded Hardy
>>>> and rebooted and did the little easy things and then let it
>>>> just sit turned on for 30 minutes, it might have just started
>>>> working. Mine did.
>
> I'm a bit baffled, what's the 30-minute wait for? I've
> selected a network and entered a password, why wait for 30
> minutes?

Maybe not 30 - but in my case it did require some time before Jockey told me
about the required firmware.
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Old 07-24-2008, 05:18 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default 8.04 networking seems awfully broken.

Grant Edwards wrote:

> On 2008-07-24, Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>
>>> Perhaps that's true, but on my Gentoo systems the DHCP client
>>> isn't started until the link is up.
>>
>> The link is "up" as far as the O/S knows when the wireless
>> interface is active.
>
> I watched the syslog, and the DHCP client was attempting to
> send requests on eth0 while the link was still down and was
> attempting to send requests on wlan0 when it was down (not yet
> associated).
>
> When I did a "ps" I could see that the DHCP client was running
> on wlan0, but wpa_supplicant wasn't, so the DHCP client was
> timing out before the wireless adapter had was associated with
> a WAP and was capable of transmitting a packet.
>
> That just doesn't seem like the right thing to do.

It's not - but it's also not what I've ever seen. What do you have
in /etc/network/interfaces?

>> Sure you have. Find a windows system, connect it to a network
>> with no DHCP server - you'll get a 169.*.*.* address.
>
> My point was that I've never been on a network where that's how
> things were supposed to work (despite what Windows does).

And my point is that you have, if you've ever been on a Windows network.
That's _exactly_ how Windows has worked for years.

>> You can argue that avahi gets it wrong - I have no idea if
>> it's right - but it is definitely _trying_ to emulate Windows
>> Zeroconf.
>
> I'm arguing that I didn't want zeroconf, could find no
> indication that checking "use DHCP" meant "and use zeroconf",
> and I couldn't find any way to disable it.

I know that, but it ISN"T YOUR PROBLEM! Zeroconf is purely a fallback for
the situation where there is no DHCP available.

> So everytime you boot, you've got to bring up the network
> manager and manually start-up wireless networking?

No, _now_ we're trying to debug the fact that you've thoroughly b0rked your
networking.

> I expected
> the network manager save the configuration anywhere so that the
> next time you boot, it would start the interface using the
> previous configuration.

As it does... Occasionally, it fails to associate on my system, but
generally it associates with any network I've previously told it to connect
to.

> One of my guesses is that the network manager either can't
> handle passwords containing spaces,

possibly - but it seems doubtful]

> or it can't handle long passwords (20+ characters).

It certainly can
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Old 07-24-2008, 05:20 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default 8.04 networking seems awfully broken.

Leif Gregory wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:18:50 +0000 (UTC)
> Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm a bit baffled, what's the 30-minute wait for? I've
>> selected a network and entered a password, why wait for 30
>> minutes?
>
> I agree. I use my laptop to connect to four different wireless
> networks (my own, my parents, my sister-in-laws, and my wife's office)
> which are all WPA. The only one I ever have problems with is my wife's
> office because it doesn't broadcast the SSID so I have to do a manual
> config, but I still never have any problems with WPA and they always
> connect up right away.

That's a design "feature". It seems to be one of those odd stances Linux
developers are always taking - "since there's no security benefit to hiding
SSIDs, we won't gracefully handle them".
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