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-   -   Same installation problem over and over again. (http://www.linux-archive.org/ubuntu-user/127247-same-installation-problem-over-over-again.html)

elmo 07-18-2008 04:30 PM

Same installation problem over and over again.
 
A personal pet peeve.

It seems that we're seeing the same thing over and over....someone has
downloaded the ISO and then burned (copied) it to a disk and the disk
doesn't work.

What some instructions imply is that the ISO is the IMAGE and all you
have to do is copy the ISO to a disk and you'll have an IMAGE disk when
in fact what you have is a copy of a compressed version of the IMAGE in
a single file

I speak from experience because I had the same problem when I started
working with ISO. I used a Nero CD burner to copy the ISO to a disk
because in several website instructions it said "copy the ISO to a CD"
and the result would be an IMAGE CD.

It was only when I discovered by experimentation that the ISO is a
single file and by running it thru an extraction, you'd see several
files. I then investigated my Nero and discovered a burner program that
is specific for creating IMAGE disks. What it does is simultaneously
extract and burn so the result is an IMAGE CD that has several files.
Which leads to a question.....if you first perform an extraction on the
ISO and then copy the resulting files to a disk, would that be an IMAGE
disk?

Later, when I had a working UBUNTU, I discovered that it had the
burners, K3B and Brasero that had the ability to create an IMAGE disk.

Instructions for creating an IMAGE CD should include a brief explanation
of the difference between an ISO and IMAGE and that a simple copy is not
the way to go.


Comments?

Elmo

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Nils Kassube 07-18-2008 05:58 PM

Same installation problem over and over again.
 
elmo wrote:
> It seems that we're seeing the same thing over and over....someone has
> downloaded the ISO and then burned (copied) it to a disk and the disk
> doesn't work.
>
> What some instructions imply is that the ISO is the IMAGE and all you
> have to do is copy the ISO to a disk and you'll have an IMAGE disk when
> in fact what you have is a copy of a compressed version of the IMAGE in
> a single file

Well, actually it isn't a compressed version of an image but an
uncompressed version of an image. Maybe the naming convention is
debatable, but e.g. k3b has the option to "burn an ISO image" (at least
that's how I would translate the German command). The problem seems to be
that some not so intelligent Windows programs can look inside the image
and see the files which makes people think they could just copy the files
to a CD. However if that program would be a bit more intelligent it would
find out that is is in fact an ISO image and offer the option to burn it
appropriately.

> It was only when I discovered by experimentation that the ISO is a
> single file and by running it thru an extraction, you'd see several
> files. I then investigated my Nero and discovered a burner program
> that is specific for creating IMAGE disks. What it does is
> simultaneously extract and burn so the result is an IMAGE CD that has
> several files.

No, nothing is extracted if you burn an iso image. The image file has the
exact layout of the CD and nothing may be changed.

> Which leads to a question.....if you first perform an
> extraction on the ISO and then copy the resulting files to a disk,
> would that be an IMAGE disk?

No. If you extract the files, e.g. the boot loader is missing, i.e. it
doesn't work.

> Instructions for creating an IMAGE CD should include a brief
> explanation of the difference between an ISO and IMAGE and that a
> simple copy is not the way to go.

Then what would you call an "image"? IMHO, if you copy the files to a CD
it can't be called an image because the location of the files is not
necessarily at the appropriate position of the resulting disk. It isn't
an image it only has a similar contents.


Nils

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Karl Larsen 07-18-2008 05:58 PM

Same installation problem over and over again.
 
elmo wrote:
> A personal pet peeve.
>
> It seems that we're seeing the same thing over and over....someone has
> downloaded the ISO and then burned (copied) it to a disk and the disk
> doesn't work.
>
> What some instructions imply is that the ISO is the IMAGE and all you
> have to do is copy the ISO to a disk and you'll have an IMAGE disk when
> in fact what you have is a copy of a compressed version of the IMAGE in
> a single file
>
> I speak from experience because I had the same problem when I started
> working with ISO. I used a Nero CD burner to copy the ISO to a disk
> because in several website instructions it said "copy the ISO to a CD"
> and the result would be an IMAGE CD.
>
> It was only when I discovered by experimentation that the ISO is a
> single file and by running it thru an extraction, you'd see several
> files. I then investigated my Nero and discovered a burner program that
> is specific for creating IMAGE disks. What it does is simultaneously
> extract and burn so the result is an IMAGE CD that has several files.
> Which leads to a question.....if you first perform an extraction on the
> ISO and then copy the resulting files to a disk, would that be an IMAGE
> disk?
>
> Later, when I had a working UBUNTU, I discovered that it had the
> burners, K3B and Brasero that had the ability to create an IMAGE disk.
>
> Instructions for creating an IMAGE CD should include a brief explanation
> of the difference between an ISO and IMAGE and that a simple copy is not
> the way to go.
>
>
> Comments?
>
> Elmo
>
>
Your making too much of the problem. I think there is a web page
that the Ubuntu web page directs you to so you know what to do. Everyone
has their own way to explain what happens.

My view is today a CD-Rom blank costs about 10 cents. I tell the new
person that you do not want to copy the iso to that CD-Rom. You want to
install the iso file.

If it works you will see several files on the CD-Rom. If you have
just one file ending in .iso you failed and throw away that CD-Rom and
try again.

Karl


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Charlie Kravetz 07-18-2008 06:08 PM

Same installation problem over and over again.
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:30:40 -0400
elmo <elmo@ne.rr.com> wrote:

> A personal pet peeve.
>
> It seems that we're seeing the same thing over and over....someone has
> downloaded the ISO and then burned (copied) it to a disk and the disk
> doesn't work.
>
> What some instructions imply is that the ISO is the IMAGE and all you
> have to do is copy the ISO to a disk and you'll have an IMAGE disk when
> in fact what you have is a copy of a compressed version of the IMAGE in
> a single file
>
> I speak from experience because I had the same problem when I started
> working with ISO. I used a Nero CD burner to copy the ISO to a disk
> because in several website instructions it said "copy the ISO to a CD"
> and the result would be an IMAGE CD.
>
> It was only when I discovered by experimentation that the ISO is a
> single file and by running it thru an extraction, you'd see several
> files. I then investigated my Nero and discovered a burner program that
> is specific for creating IMAGE disks. What it does is simultaneously
> extract and burn so the result is an IMAGE CD that has several files.
> Which leads to a question.....if you first perform an extraction on the
> ISO and then copy the resulting files to a disk, would that be an IMAGE
> disk?
>
> Later, when I had a working UBUNTU, I discovered that it had the
> burners, K3B and Brasero that had the ability to create an IMAGE disk.
>
> Instructions for creating an IMAGE CD should include a brief explanation
> of the difference between an ISO and IMAGE and that a simple copy is not
> the way to go.
>
>
> Comments?
>
> Elmo
>
Well said. I wonder how this could be added to download page, where
users will see it when they download the files.

- --
Charlie Kravetz
Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/]
Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com]
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elmo 07-19-2008 12:24 AM

Same installation problem over and over again.
 
> > Elmo
>
> Well said. I wonder how this could be added to download page, where
> users will see it when they download the files.
Exactly, that's where the information should be.
elmo


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"David Fox" 07-19-2008 02:48 AM

Same installation problem over and over again.
 
On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 9:30 AM, elmo <elmo@ne.rr.com> wrote:

> Later, when I had a working UBUNTU, I discovered that it had the
> burners, K3B and Brasero that had the ability to create an IMAGE disk.

Yes. Not only that, if you do a "create new data disk" in K3B and drag
& drop the ISO file into the files window to burn, it *assumes* (at
least K3B does) that you want to burn the file as an image, and not as
a filesystem containing only one file.

I have never used nero. Maybe it doesn't make that assumption for you,
which causes these sorts of problems?

> Elmo
>

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elmo 07-19-2008 02:53 PM

Same installation problem over and over again.
 
David Fox wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 9:30 AM, elmo <elmo@ne.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Later, when I had a working UBUNTU, I discovered that it had the
>> burners, K3B and Brasero that had the ability to create an IMAGE disk.
>>
>
> Yes. Not only that, if you do a "create new data disk" in K3B and drag
> & drop the ISO file into the files window to burn, it *assumes* (at
> least K3B does) that you want to burn the file as an image, and not as
> a filesystem containing only one file.
>
> I have never used nero. Maybe it doesn't make that assumption for you,
> which causes these sorts of problems?
>
>
>> Elmo
>>
>>
>
>
Nero has something called "Burn Image to disk" but anyone who lived in a
Windows environment
only and has never before had the need to make an image disk may never
think of looking for it
in Nero. I'm one of those people. Judging from how many Windows
users,even now, have difficulty with making
a proper UBUNTU IMAGE disk, I wasn't alone.

Now, I use either Brasero or K3B and have 3 variations of UBUNTU
installed, one on an external HD.


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elmo 07-19-2008 03:04 PM

Same installation problem over and over again.
 
David Fox wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 9:30 AM, elmo <elmo@ne.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Later, when I had a working UBUNTU, I discovered that it had the
>> burners, K3B and Brasero that had the ability to create an IMAGE disk.
>>
>
> Yes. Not only that, if you do a "create new data disk" in K3B and drag
> & drop the ISO file into the files window to burn, it *assumes* (at
> least K3B does) that you want to burn the file as an image, and not as
> a filesystem containing only one file.
>
> I have never used nero. Maybe it doesn't make that assumption for you,
> which causes these sorts of problems?
>
>
>> Elmo
>>
>>
>
>
I blame careless statements implying "ISO = IMAGE". This makes it sound
that all you have to do is copy ISO to a disk and you'll have an IMAGE disk.






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Andy 07-19-2008 03:17 PM

Same installation problem over and over again.
 
elmo wrote:
> Nero has something called "Burn Image to disk" but anyone who lived in a
> Windows environment
> only and has never before had the need to make an image disk may never
> think of looking for it
> in Nero. I'm one of those people. Judging from how many Windows
> users,even now, have difficulty with making
> a proper UBUNTU IMAGE disk, I wasn't alone.

The instructions at <https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BurningIsoHowto>
seem to be pretty simple to follow.

If you still have Nero then feel free to write a Wiki page about how to
use it to burn Ubuntu CDs with it, but obviously Nero can't be
recommended because Nero is non-free.

If people still have problems we always have shippit.


Andy

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elmo 07-19-2008 03:35 PM

Same installation problem over and over again.
 
Karl Larsen wrote:
> elmo wrote:
>
>> A personal pet peeve.
>>
>> It seems that we're seeing the same thing over and over....someone has
>> downloaded the ISO and then burned (copied) it to a disk and the disk
>> doesn't work.
>>
>> What some instructions imply is that the ISO is the IMAGE and all you
>> have to do is copy the ISO to a disk and you'll have an IMAGE disk when
>> in fact what you have is a copy of a compressed version of the IMAGE in
>> a single file
>>
>> I speak from experience because I had the same problem when I started
>> working with ISO. I used a Nero CD burner to copy the ISO to a disk
>> because in several website instructions it said "copy the ISO to a CD"
>> and the result would be an IMAGE CD.
>>
>> It was only when I discovered by experimentation that the ISO is a
>> single file and by running it thru an extraction, you'd see several
>> files. I then investigated my Nero and discovered a burner program that
>> is specific for creating IMAGE disks. What it does is simultaneously
>> extract and burn so the result is an IMAGE CD that has several files.
>> Which leads to a question.....if you first perform an extraction on the
>> ISO and then copy the resulting files to a disk, would that be an IMAGE
>> disk?
>>
>> Later, when I had a working UBUNTU, I discovered that it had the
>> burners, K3B and Brasero that had the ability to create an IMAGE disk.
>>
>> Instructions for creating an IMAGE CD should include a brief explanation
>> of the difference between an ISO and IMAGE and that a simple copy is not
>> the way to go.
>>
>>
>> Comments?
>>
>> Elmo
>>
>>
>>
> Your making too much of the problem. I think there is a web page
> that the Ubuntu web page directs you to so you know what to do. Everyone
> has their own way to explain what happens.
>
> My view is today a CD-Rom blank costs about 10 cents. I tell the new
> person that you do not want to copy the iso to that CD-Rom. You want to
> install the iso file.
>
> If it works you will see several files on the CD-Rom. If you have
> just one file ending in .iso you failed and throw away that CD-Rom and
> try again.
>
> Karl
>
>
>
I think we're having a semantics problem here. I disagree with your
statement " You want to install the ISO file". You'll have to throw
away a lot of disks.

I think it is more correct to say "You want to install the IMAGE file"
There's a vast difference between ISO and IMAGE. If they were the same,
why do we
bother with creating an IMAGE?

In fact, if you read the wording of the name of any proper installing
process, the goal is to
burn IMAGE to disk.

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