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Old 07-19-2008, 04:41 PM
ac
 
Default Same installation problem over and over again.

elmo wrote:
> A personal pet peeve.
>
> It seems that we're seeing the same thing over and over....someone
has
> downloaded the ISO and then burned (copied) it to a disk and the disk
> doesn't work.
>
> What some instructions imply is that the ISO is the IMAGE and all you
> have to do is copy the ISO to a disk and you'll have an IMAGE disk
when
> in fact what you have is a copy of a compressed version of the
IMAGE in
> a single file
>
> I speak from experience because I had the same problem when I started
> working with ISO. I used a Nero CD burner to copy the ISO to a disk
> because in several website instructions it said "copy the ISO to a
CD"
> and the result would be an IMAGE CD.
>
> It was only when I discovered by experimentation that the ISO is a
> single file and by running it thru an extraction, you'd see several
> files. I then investigated my Nero and discovered a burner
program that
> is specific for creating IMAGE disks. What it does is simultaneously
> extract and burn so the result is an IMAGE CD that has several
files.
> Which leads to a question.....if you first perform an extraction
on the
> ISO and then copy the resulting files to a disk, would that be an
IMAGE
> disk?
>
> Later, when I had a working UBUNTU, I discovered that it had the
> burners, K3B and Brasero that had the ability to create an IMAGE disk.
>
> Instructions for creating an IMAGE CD should include a brief
explanation
> of the difference between an ISO and IMAGE and that a simple copy
is not
> the way to go.

I sympathise with your general point. However, I have only *very*
rarely seen an instruction to 'copy' an iso file to cd.

In general I believe the problem you find peeving arises because
people who have become used to proprietary software and its
constrained environment are almost never expected to have anything
quite so powerful as an iso! They will be expected to purchase a
retail pack in a box containing a CD.

As it happens I chanced upon one only a few days ago, and a quick
email to the site admin has got it quickly changed to 'burn'.

When you follow the links to download ubuntu
http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download
and then you reach the download page, this contains the information
you want:
http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/downloading?release=desktop-lts&arch=i386&mirror=http%3A%2F%2Fubuntu.linux-bg.org%2Freleases%2F&debug=&download-button=

this page includes:
======================
Need Help?
Here are some tips for ensuring a successful Ubuntu experience. You
may want to print this page for your reference.
* Learn how to create a CD from your newly downloaded file:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BurningIsoHowto
======================

I also note that the download sub window (at least in Firefox) says
you are downloading a
'(filename.iso)
Which is a: raw CD image'

So there is information in the place you might expect, although I am
not sure from your posting which site you went to.
The internet is full of advice on such things and as you note some of
it is not as useful as you would hope.

I have generally found that the Ubuntu forums are friendly, patient,
and competent, and I commend these to you and others who may have
uncertainties.

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Old 07-19-2008, 04:42 PM
Karl Larsen
 
Default Same installation problem over and over again.

elmo wrote:
> Karl Larsen wrote:
>
>> elmo wrote:
>>
>>
>>> A personal pet peeve.
>>>
>>> It seems that we're seeing the same thing over and over....someone has
>>> downloaded the ISO and then burned (copied) it to a disk and the disk
>>> doesn't work.
>>>
>>> What some instructions imply is that the ISO is the IMAGE and all you
>>> have to do is copy the ISO to a disk and you'll have an IMAGE disk when
>>> in fact what you have is a copy of a compressed version of the IMAGE in
>>> a single file
>>>
>>> I speak from experience because I had the same problem when I started
>>> working with ISO. I used a Nero CD burner to copy the ISO to a disk
>>> because in several website instructions it said "copy the ISO to a CD"
>>> and the result would be an IMAGE CD.
>>>
>>> It was only when I discovered by experimentation that the ISO is a
>>> single file and by running it thru an extraction, you'd see several
>>> files. I then investigated my Nero and discovered a burner program that
>>> is specific for creating IMAGE disks. What it does is simultaneously
>>> extract and burn so the result is an IMAGE CD that has several files.
>>> Which leads to a question.....if you first perform an extraction on the
>>> ISO and then copy the resulting files to a disk, would that be an IMAGE
>>> disk?
>>>
>>> Later, when I had a working UBUNTU, I discovered that it had the
>>> burners, K3B and Brasero that had the ability to create an IMAGE disk.
>>>
>>> Instructions for creating an IMAGE CD should include a brief explanation
>>> of the difference between an ISO and IMAGE and that a simple copy is not
>>> the way to go.
>>>
>>>
>>> Comments?
>>>
>>> Elmo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Your making too much of the problem. I think there is a web page
>> that the Ubuntu web page directs you to so you know what to do. Everyone
>> has their own way to explain what happens.
>>
>> My view is today a CD-Rom blank costs about 10 cents. I tell the new
>> person that you do not want to copy the iso to that CD-Rom. You want to
>> install the iso file.
>>
>> If it works you will see several files on the CD-Rom. If you have
>> just one file ending in .iso you failed and throw away that CD-Rom and
>> try again.
>>
>> Karl
>>
>>
>>
>>
> I think we're having a semantics problem here. I disagree with your
> statement " You want to install the ISO file". You'll have to throw
> away a lot of disks.
>
> I think it is more correct to say "You want to install the IMAGE file"
> There's a vast difference between ISO and IMAGE. If they were the same,
> why do we
> bother with creating an IMAGE?
>
> In fact, if you read the wording of the name of any proper installing
> process, the goal is to
> burn IMAGE to disk.
>
>
Wrong, the goal is to get a working LiveCD. Since we have people on
this list who have other languages it gets tricky to explain how to do it.

What you have often is a file ending in .iso, a Windows computer,
and a person who speaks a language between the age of about 8 and 90.
They should have an idea how to put the file on a CD. If not they should
buy the CD from the Ubuntu Web Page.

Karl


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Old 07-19-2008, 05:22 PM
ac
 
Default Same installation problem over and over again.

elmo wrote:
> David Fox wrote:
>> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 9:30 AM, elmo <elmo@ne.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Later, when I had a working UBUNTU, I discovered that it had the
>>> burners, K3B and Brasero that had the ability to create an IMAGE disk.
>>>
>>
>> Yes. Not only that, if you do a "create new data disk" in K3B and drag
>> & drop the ISO file into the files window to burn, it *assumes* (at
>> least K3B does) that you want to burn the file as an image, and not as
>> a filesystem containing only one file.
>>
>> I have never used nero. Maybe it doesn't make that assumption for you,
>> which causes these sorts of problems?
>>
>>
>>> Elmo

> Nero has something called "Burn Image to disk" but anyone who lived in a
> Windows environment
> only and has never before had the need to make an image disk may never
> think of looking for it
> in Nero. I'm one of those people.

You are one of the people who have decided to break away from the
closed world of proprietary software, and well done for you!

Windows world has a big investment in keeping much useful information
away from users. It does this partly under the guise of simplicity and
convenience. There is enough truth in the convenience story to sustain
it anyway.

However the mantra of free (freedom) software is that with using
proprietary software you are kept helpless. Many windows users
fiercely defend the status quo almost as if they want to remain
helpless. Perhaps they do, it is for them to choose.

The choice they have exists because freedom software pioneers in GNU
and Linux, have used considerable effort to create and subsequently
try to defend, freedom of choice, and knowledge (of code) not
helplessness. the effort is an ongoing one and success is not guaranteed.

One of the effects of not using windows, and using freedom stuff, is
that after a time, maybe a year or so, one forgets what it was like
when one (if ever) used proprietary software. It took me a bit longer,
and I still try to keep it in mind, to help others out of the swamp -
if they want to leave that is.

I am mostly surrounded by a windows world, and any mention of the
alternative to Windows meets with distrust, sometimes derision. It is
a tiring situation, and the big budget marketing intends it to be.

As you begin to use freedom software more and more, you can help
others to appreciate more exactly what is needed to assist others to
dig their escape tunnel, as your patient messages suggest you are
doing now.

> Judging from how many Windows
> users,even now, have difficulty with making
> a proper UBUNTU IMAGE disk, I wasn't alone.

Wherever they are, please do what you can to make their freedom of
choice a real one by offering suitable information?

> Now, I use either Brasero or K3B and have 3 variations of UBUNTU
> installed, one on an external HD.

Welcome to freedom!

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Old 07-19-2008, 09:07 PM
elmo
 
Default Same installation problem over and over again.

Andy wrote:
> elmo wrote:
>
>> Nero has something called "Burn Image to disk" but anyone who lived in a
>> Windows environment
>> only and has never before had the need to make an image disk may never
>> think of looking for it
>> in Nero. I'm one of those people. Judging from how many Windows
>> users,even now, have difficulty with making
>> a proper UBUNTU IMAGE disk, I wasn't alone.
>>
>
> The instructions at <https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BurningIsoHowto>
> seem to be pretty simple to follow.
>
I disagree that the instructions are simple to follow. Look at it the
way a Window user would or anyone who has never had to create a UBUNTU
CD. At first reading, they may appear simple but they are misleading.

QUOTE: "Ubuntu is distributed over the Internet as CD image files,
called ISOs. To install Ubuntu, you first need to burn its ISO file onto
a CD"

This is the exact wording from that website.

OK, so we look in our CD burner for a way to burn the ISO to a CD.
Instead, we find something that will burn an IMAGE, not an ISO.
Oops, wrong one?????

My comments take into consideration, the person who has no idea of what
a ISO or IMAGE file is, very likely someone who has experience in
Windows only and has never had the need to work with ISO and IMAGE.
Also, Linux/UBUNTU users who have never had the need to make their own
disks.

Since Nero is the CD/DVD burner many Windows machines have, my comments
use Nero as an example. I know there are other burners available for
Windows and I'll bet none of them will burn an ISO to a CD but they can
burn the IMAGE. The process basically involves two things, extracting
the files from ISO and simultaneously burning them as IMAGE.

This is largely a semantics problem. Wrong choice of words, using ISO
and IMAGE interchangeably. It can make all the difference to
a newcomer from the Windows world and perhaps even anyone experienced in
Linux/UBUNTU who has never had to make their own IMAGE disk.
(or should I call it an ISO disk?)

Elmo


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Old 07-19-2008, 10:26 PM
Nils Kassube
 
Default Same installation problem over and over again.

elmo wrote:
> Andy wrote:
> > The instructions at
> > <https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BurningIsoHowto> seem to be pretty
> > simple to follow.
>
> I disagree that the instructions are simple to follow. Look at it the
> way a Window user would or anyone who has never had to create a UBUNTU
> CD. At first reading, they may appear simple but they are misleading.
>
> QUOTE: "Ubuntu is distributed over the Internet as CD image files,
> called ISOs. To install Ubuntu, you first need to burn its ISO file
> onto a CD"
>
> This is the exact wording from that website.
>
> OK, so we look in our CD burner for a way to burn the ISO to a CD.
> Instead, we find something that will burn an IMAGE, not an ISO.
> Oops, wrong one?????

Well, you quote only the first few words of the page. The instructions how
to burn the CD follows after that part. Granted, there is no word how to
do it with Nero, but if you follow the instructions it should work. If
you use another program than suggested by the instructions (i.e. Nero for
you) you may find out yourself how to do it with that particular program.
But if you can't find out how to do it with that other program, better
follow the given instructions and don't insist on using something else.
Of course the alternative option would be to write instructions for Nero
and have those included to the existing instructions.

> Since Nero is the CD/DVD burner many Windows machines have, my comments
> use Nero as an example. I know there are other burners available for
> Windows and I'll bet none of them will burn an ISO to a CD but they can
> burn the IMAGE.

It seems that you think there is a difference between an image file and an
iso file, but they are the same. If you think that is worng, please
explain what you think is the difference between the two. And are there
two different commands in Nero to burn an image or an ISO file? Sorry, I
don't have Nero, so I can't check it myself.

> The process basically involves two things, extracting
> the files from ISO and simultaneously burning them as IMAGE.

No, you may not extract anything from an ISO image to make it a working
bootable CD.

> This is largely a semantics problem. Wrong choice of words, using ISO
> and IMAGE interchangeably.

The words image and ISO are actually interchangeable here. Maybe there is
an additional / different meaning for one of the words in the Windows
world, but then I have no idea, what the difference might be.


Nils

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Old 07-20-2008, 12:13 AM
elmo
 
Default Same installation problem over and over again.

Nils Kassube wrote:
> elmo wrote:
>
>> Andy wrote:
>>
>>> The instructions at
>>> <https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BurningIsoHowto> seem to be pretty
>>> simple to follow.
>>>
>> I disagree that the instructions are simple to follow. Look at it the
>> way a Window user would or anyone who has never had to create a UBUNTU
>> CD. At first reading, they may appear simple but they are misleading.
>>
>> QUOTE: "Ubuntu is distributed over the Internet as CD image files,
>> called ISOs. To install Ubuntu, you first need to burn its ISO file
>> onto a CD"
>>
>> This is the exact wording from that website.
>>
>> OK, so we look in our CD burner for a way to burn the ISO to a CD.
>> Instead, we find something that will burn an IMAGE, not an ISO.
>> Oops, wrong one?????
>>
>
> Well, you quote only the first few words of the page. The instructions how
> to burn the CD follows after that part. Granted, there is no word how to
> do it with Nero, but if you follow the instructions it should work. If
> you use another program than suggested by the instructions (i.e. Nero for
> you) you may find out yourself how to do it with that particular program.
> But if you can't find out how to do it with that other program, better
> follow the given instructions and don't insist on using something else.
> Of course the alternative option would be to write instructions for Nero
> and have those included to the existing instructions.
>
>
>> Since Nero is the CD/DVD burner many Windows machines have, my comments
>> use Nero as an example. I know there are other burners available for
>> Windows and I'll bet none of them will burn an ISO to a CD but they can
>> burn the IMAGE.
>>
>
> It seems that you think there is a difference between an image file and an
> iso file, but they are the same. If you think that is worng, please
> explain what you think is the difference between the two. And are there
> two different commands in Nero to burn an image or an ISO file? Sorry, I
> don't have Nero, so I can't check it myself.
>
>
>> The process basically involves two things, extracting
>> the files from ISO and simultaneously burning them as IMAGE.
>>
>
> No, you may not extract anything from an ISO image to make it a working
> bootable CD.
>
>
>> This is largely a semantics problem. Wrong choice of words, using ISO
>> and IMAGE interchangeably.
>>
>
> The words image and ISO are actually interchangeable here. Maybe there is
> an additional / different meaning for one of the words in the Windows
> world, but then I have no idea, what the difference might be.
>
In any world, the difference is ISO contains only a single file that
requires extraction to create an IMAGE that contains several files.
The ISO isn't usable in its original form, it must be converted to IMAGE.

Are you saying that it's OK to skip IMAGE and just make an ISO disk?
ISO and IMAGE may both contain the same information but they are in two
entirely different
forms. ISO has only a single file whereas IMAGE consists of several
files that are extracted from
that single file in ISO. Check this for yourself. Iake a look at
contents of an ISO and compare it to
the contents of an IMAGE. Then perform an extract on the ISO and you'll
see the files that are found in the IMAGE.

Yes, ISO and IMAGE have the same information but this doesn't
necessarily mean that you can substitute one for the other. If they
were identical, there'd be no need to create an IMAGE disk. Just
download ISO, copy it to a CD and install UBUNTU

I'd like to know if anyone has ever installed UBUNTU using an ISO disk
instead of an IMAGE disk.

Also, examine any CD burner system, and try to find something that burns
an ISO disk. What you'll find
is there's something that burns an IMAGE disk but not an ISO disk. Why
is this?
>
> Nils
>
>
elmo

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Old 07-20-2008, 12:57 AM
David Curtis
 
Default Same installation problem over and over again.

elmo wrote:
> Nils Kassube wrote:
>> elmo wrote:
>>
>>> Andy wrote:
>>>
>>>> The instructions at
>>>> <https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BurningIsoHowto> seem to be pretty
>>>> simple to follow.
>>>>
>>> I disagree that the instructions are simple to follow. Look at it the
>>> way a Window user would or anyone who has never had to create a UBUNTU
>>> CD. At first reading, they may appear simple but they are misleading.
>>>
>>> QUOTE: "Ubuntu is distributed over the Internet as CD image files,
>>> called ISOs. To install Ubuntu, you first need to burn its ISO file
>>> onto a CD"
>>>
>>> This is the exact wording from that website.
>>>
>>> OK, so we look in our CD burner for a way to burn the ISO to a CD.
>>> Instead, we find something that will burn an IMAGE, not an ISO.
>>> Oops, wrong one?????
>>>
>> Well, you quote only the first few words of the page. The instructions how
>> to burn the CD follows after that part. Granted, there is no word how to
>> do it with Nero, but if you follow the instructions it should work. If
>> you use another program than suggested by the instructions (i.e. Nero for
>> you) you may find out yourself how to do it with that particular program.
>> But if you can't find out how to do it with that other program, better
>> follow the given instructions and don't insist on using something else.
>> Of course the alternative option would be to write instructions for Nero
>> and have those included to the existing instructions.
>>
>>
>>> Since Nero is the CD/DVD burner many Windows machines have, my comments
>>> use Nero as an example. I know there are other burners available for
>>> Windows and I'll bet none of them will burn an ISO to a CD but they can
>>> burn the IMAGE.
>>>
>> It seems that you think there is a difference between an image file and an
>> iso file, but they are the same. If you think that is worng, please
>> explain what you think is the difference between the two. And are there
>> two different commands in Nero to burn an image or an ISO file? Sorry, I
>> don't have Nero, so I can't check it myself.
>>
>>
>>> The process basically involves two things, extracting
>>> the files from ISO and simultaneously burning them as IMAGE.
>>>
>> No, you may not extract anything from an ISO image to make it a working
>> bootable CD.
>>
>>
>>> This is largely a semantics problem. Wrong choice of words, using ISO
>>> and IMAGE interchangeably.
>>>
>> The words image and ISO are actually interchangeable here. Maybe there is
>> an additional / different meaning for one of the words in the Windows
>> world, but then I have no idea, what the difference might be.
>>
> In any world, the difference is ISO contains only a single file that
> requires extraction to create an IMAGE that contains several files.
> The ISO isn't usable in its original form, it must be converted to IMAGE.
>
> Are you saying that it's OK to skip IMAGE and just make an ISO disk?
> ISO and IMAGE may both contain the same information but they are in two
> entirely different
> forms. ISO has only a single file whereas IMAGE consists of several
> files that are extracted from
> that single file in ISO. Check this for yourself. Iake a look at
> contents of an ISO and compare it to
> the contents of an IMAGE. Then perform an extract on the ISO and you'll
> see the files that are found in the IMAGE.
>
> Yes, ISO and IMAGE have the same information but this doesn't
> necessarily mean that you can substitute one for the other. If they
> were identical, there'd be no need to create an IMAGE disk. Just
> download ISO, copy it to a CD and install UBUNTU
>
> I'd like to know if anyone has ever installed UBUNTU using an ISO disk
> instead of an IMAGE disk.
>
> Also, examine any CD burner system, and try to find something that burns
> an ISO disk. What you'll find
> is there's something that burns an IMAGE disk but not an ISO disk. Why
> is this?
>> Nils
>>
>>
> elmo
>

Elmo, maybe you should read these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_Image
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_disc_image
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_image


I know, I know. Wikipedia isn't the master reference we think it is. But
who wants to sift through a bunch of whitepapers to argue symantics.

We use the verb 'to image' to describe the act of creating an image file
from optical media. Whether that file is .iso, .bin or any of the
proprietary formats. They all are called image files. The difference
between the formats is only the type of metadata that stores information
regarding the disk's attributes, ie. bootable.

Dave

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Old 07-20-2008, 05:11 AM
Nils Kassube
 
Default Same installation problem over and over again.

elmo wrote:
> In any world, the difference is ISO contains only a single file that
> requires extraction to create an IMAGE that contains several files.
> The ISO isn't usable in its original form, it must be converted to
> IMAGE.

Can you give an example (URL) of that unusable ISO file, you are speaking
of, which has to be somehow converted?


Nils

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Old 07-20-2008, 02:04 PM
Charlie Kravetz
 
Default Same installation problem over and over again.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 00:26:07 +0200
Nils Kassube <kassube@gmx.net> wrote:

> elmo wrote:
> > Andy wrote:
> > > The instructions at
> > > <https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BurningIsoHowto> seem to be pretty
> > > simple to follow.
> >
> > I disagree that the instructions are simple to follow. Look at it the
> > way a Window user would or anyone who has never had to create a UBUNTU
> > CD. At first reading, they may appear simple but they are misleading.
> >
> > QUOTE: "Ubuntu is distributed over the Internet as CD image files,
> > called ISOs. To install Ubuntu, you first need to burn its ISO file
> > onto a CD"
> >
> > This is the exact wording from that website.
> >
> > OK, so we look in our CD burner for a way to burn the ISO to a CD.
> > Instead, we find something that will burn an IMAGE, not an ISO.
> > Oops, wrong one?????
>
> Well, you quote only the first few words of the page. The instructions how
> to burn the CD follows after that part. Granted, there is no word how to
> do it with Nero, but if you follow the instructions it should work. If
> you use another program than suggested by the instructions (i.e. Nero for
> you) you may find out yourself how to do it with that particular program.
> But if you can't find out how to do it with that other program, better
> follow the given instructions and don't insist on using something else.
> Of course the alternative option would be to write instructions for Nero
> and have those included to the existing instructions.
>
> > Since Nero is the CD/DVD burner many Windows machines have, my comments
> > use Nero as an example. I know there are other burners available for
> > Windows and I'll bet none of them will burn an ISO to a CD but they can
> > burn the IMAGE.
>
> It seems that you think there is a difference between an image file and an
> iso file, but they are the same. If you think that is worng, please
> explain what you think is the difference between the two. And are there
> two different commands in Nero to burn an image or an ISO file? Sorry, I
> don't have Nero, so I can't check it myself.
>
> > The process basically involves two things, extracting
> > the files from ISO and simultaneously burning them as IMAGE.
>
> No, you may not extract anything from an ISO image to make it a working
> bootable CD.
>
> > This is largely a semantics problem. Wrong choice of words, using ISO
> > and IMAGE interchangeably.
>
> The words image and ISO are actually interchangeable here. Maybe there is
> an additional / different meaning for one of the words in the Windows
> world, but then I have no idea, what the difference might be.
>
>
> Nils
>

I'm using "I" because it is easier here. I do NOT use windows myself:

I think what one of the biggest issues with this is that as a windows
user, I know how to burn CD's. I go to the Ubuntu home page[1], read
about the desktop edition, click the link to more[2], read again. Then I
click download, make my selection[3], and the download starts. I see a
link about how to burn a cd[3], I don't need to follow that link,
because I already know how to burn a cd. When the install fails, I
become frustrated because the installation cd is no good, even though I
did it right.

Now, how do I know why it failed? I have ?? years burning cd's in
windows, never had any problems before, and did the same thing two or
three times. When I come here and ask for help, I'm referred to a
webpage that doesn't even mention the burner program I'm using! I
haven't used the program there, and the one I have has worked for me
for ?? years.

Why can't I get the ISO file to burn right?
REPEAT: I'm using "I" because it is easier here. I do NOT use windows
myself


If the download page had a simple line or two stating "You can not copy
this file to a cd, you must burn the image or burn the ISO instead"
a lot of "Why can't I " would be avoided.

[1] http://www.ubuntu.com/
[2] http://www.ubuntu.com/products/WhatIsUbuntu/desktopedition
[3] http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download


- --
Charlie Kravetz
Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/]
Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com]
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