On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 5:33 AM, Peter Garrett <peter.garrett@optusnet.com.au> wrote:





I think that we are seeing the usual evolution of a list as the project

becomes ever more popular. In 2004-6 (roughly), this list really was

mostly about technical help and discussion, and I think the

"demographic" was *similar* to that on, say, a Debian list. As Ubuntu

has become more and more popular, we have seen an influx of people who

don't come from the "traditional" Linuxish/*nixish backgrounds. The

kinds of questions have changed, and the level of discussion has perhaps

dropped in quality somewhat.



That's a nice way of saying that the signal-to-noise ratio has

deteriorated ;-)
It could be as there* are more beginners that like me don't know anything about Linux (and ubuntu)* and I think it is good in some way.





Fortunately, there are some excellent posters who continue to provide

good advice and help. Inevitably, there are now more of the other

variety than there used to be.
A big thanks to all of them as they really help to make the change between Windows and Ubuntu* and are present when we need help because we made a stupid mistake







* We are likely to see some people disappear, because the nature of the

"community" has changed in ways that don't fit their perceptions of

what "should" be happening, or their interests no longer fit the

changes.
Some newbby don't take the time to search and often answer not very nicely when you try to help and that is sad to read





* We are going to suffer from the loss of people who are simply tired

of repeating the same answers again and again. If you spend enough time

trying to help, you eventually get to a stage where it often seems

better not to say anything, rather than be seen as "arrogant" or "a net

nanny" or a "self-appointed expert", and so on....
Why, that is not arrogance to know and help if somebody can't take an answer he or she can look for an answer by himself/herself. I read before that I begun to use the list that the answer could be impolite and I could be insult by asking a question. It happened only once because I didn't understand how not to top post and I admit it was because of my mistake never because of the question.





* All of this is perfectly normal and part of the expected changes in a

large project that has a wide variety of participants.



* Lest this be seen as a long-winded illumination of the obvious - the

point of sending it is to try to summarise the reasons for recent

*cough* long threads dealing mostly with very "human" issues - like

"why are we getting irritated by a few loud and obnoxious posters with

no clues", and so on.*I think it is ok for people who take the time to answer to be irritated sometimes, so what just get over it stay polite and thanks for the help.





To those who dislike terse and to-the-point answers: get over it. Those

terse but accurate answers are the life blood of a project, and usually

come from the people who know the most, and are willing to communicate

their knowledge.



To those who are used to giving terse-but-correct answers: Ubuntu is

not Slackware or Debian, and a few more warm-fuzzies won't hurt you when

you deliver your knowledge ;-)
It is to the newbby to make an effort as he or she is of need of help not the other way around, at least it is the way I see it. If the post is going out of topic because of the person who ask the answer just stop answering that will save you time.


So for a conclusion I will just thanks the list for who they are and there help and tell newbby to stay polite and try to understand the people who are helping them.

Sincerely

Meg
(I hope that I quote the message correctly, if not let me know)





* the hard-line "teach a man to fish" crowd - sit back and laugh at

yourselves a bit.





--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users

ubuntu-users-request@lists.ubuntu.com wrote:


Message: 1
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 19:33:02 +1000
From: Peter Garrett <peter.garrett@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: What's happening on ubuntu-users , and why it's normal
To: ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Message-ID: <20080612193302.39d1b9df.peter.garrett@optusnet.co m.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I've just spent some time reading through recent threads, and decided
to throw in some thoughts about the ubuntu-users list over the last few
years.

Just to forestall the inevitable: yes, I know about sounder ;-)

Some people with long memories might recall that I used to answer quite
a few questions here, once upon a time. ;-) Lately other projects and
concerns have meant that I have not contributed much.

This post will probably be seen as off-topic by some... So be it.

I think that we are seeing the usual evolution of a list as the project
becomes ever more popular. In 2004-6 (roughly), this list really was
mostly about technical help and discussion, and I think the
"demographic" was *similar* to that on, say, a Debian list. As Ubuntu
has become more and more popular, we have seen an influx of people who
don't come from the "traditional" Linuxish/*nixish backgrounds. The
kinds of questions have changed, and the level of discussion has perhaps
dropped in quality somewhat.

That's a nice way of saying that the signal-to-noise ratio has
deteriorated ;-)

Fortunately, there are some excellent posters who continue to provide
good advice and help. Inevitably, there are now more of the other
variety than there used to be.

The reason for this post may not be immediately obvious, so here is my
take on what is seemingly happening. (This appears to be true for other
communication channels like IRC as well).

* We are going through the period during which a relatively new
project sorts out what it is actually for, and who actually fits that
need.

* We are likely to see some people disappear, because the nature of the
"community" has changed in ways that don't fit their perceptions of
what "should" be happening, or their interests no longer fit the
changes.

* We are going to suffer from the loss of people who are simply tired
of repeating the same answers again and again. If you spend enough time
trying to help, you eventually get to a stage where it often seems
better not to say anything, rather than be seen as "arrogant" or "a net
nanny" or a "self-appointed expert", and so on....

* All of this is perfectly normal and part of the expected changes in a
large project that has a wide variety of participants.

* Lest this be seen as a long-winded illumination of the obvious - the
point of sending it is to try to summarise the reasons for recent
*cough* long threads dealing mostly with very "human" issues - like
"why are we getting irritated by a few loud and obnoxious posters with
no clues", and so on.

To those who dislike terse and to-the-point answers: get over it. Those
terse but accurate answers are the life blood of a project, and usually
come from the people who know the most, and are willing to communicate
their knowledge.

To those who are used to giving terse-but-correct answers: Ubuntu is
not Slackware or Debian, and a few more warm-fuzzies won't hurt you when
you deliver your knowledge ;-)

It is interesting to note that a number of those who have been singled
out for criticism by complainers in the recent sagas are actually the
very people who make this list worth reading.

So in summary:

* the hard-line "teach a man to fish" crowd - sit back and laugh at
yourselves a bit.

* the "people on this list are rude" crowd - read a little bit about
Unix and Linux history, and stop expecting everyone to be polite all
the time.

Ubuntu doesn't mean "don't tread on anyone's toes" - if your toes hurt,
think a bit about why, and you might come to some interesting
conclusions.

Here endeth the sermon ;-)

( For those with limited humour - this is a good-natured post from an
Ubuntu supporter who thinks storms in teacups are entertaining, but not
to be taken so seriously.)



Very well said and I might add right on target,
I have gotten a great deal of help from the list.



Unfortunately, however, even though I have a long background of
software development I have not been able to return the favor. I am
still learning Ubuntu and as I become more knowledgeable I too will
begin to post possible solutions to problems.



Cheers,

Jay

--


Jay Ridgley
jridgley2@austin.rr.com
Registered Linux User ID - 9115



--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users

Peter Garrett wrote:

> This post will probably be seen as off-topic by some... So be it.

Since I don't see anything in your post that I'd qualify as "Ubuntu user
technical support", it probably is indeed off topic.
But I don't consider it more OT than most of those "rsync is bad" or
"forget Hardy" zombie threads. So, personally, I don't mind (which could
easily be deduced by the fact that I answered ;-) ).

> That's a nice way of saying that the signal-to-noise ratio has
> deteriorated ;-)

Well, on the one hand, this is caused by more and more inexperienced
users switching to Ubuntu. I consider this normal and even desired since
Ubuntu is in my understanding a distribution which strives to be usable
even for people who don't have thorough knowledge of computers in
general or Linux in particular.
OTOH, and that's what really annoys me, is that lately most of the noise
in this group is caused by a single person. Someone who not only
provides almost no signal himself but even causes tremendous amounts of
noise with his provoking wrong-claiming posts.
But, alas, in my experience this is quite normal too.

> * the hard-line "teach a man to fish" crowd - sit back and laugh at
> yourselves a bit.

This reminds me of the most brilliant thing I ever read on a Dilbert strip:
"
If you give a man a fish, he will eat for a day.
If you teach a man how to fish, he will buy an ugly hat.
If you talk about fish to a starving man, you're a consultant.
"

Regards
mks

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 13:36:09 +0200
Markus Schönhaber <ubuntu-users@list-post.mks-mail.de> wrote:

> Peter Garrett wrote:
>
> > This post will probably be seen as off-topic by some... So be it.
>
> Since I don't see anything in your post that I'd qualify as "Ubuntu user
> technical support", it probably is indeed off topic.

:-) I'm acting as a consultant ;p ( yes, I know i snipped that - it's
funny though).

[snip]
> > That's a nice way of saying that the signal-to-noise ratio has
> > deteriorated ;-)
>
> Well, on the one hand, this is caused by more and more inexperienced
> users switching to Ubuntu. I consider this normal and even desired since
> Ubuntu is in my understanding a distribution which strives to be usable
> even for people who don't have thorough knowledge of computers in
> general or Linux in particular.

Yes, which is part of what I intended to suggest.


--
Peter Garrett <peter.garrett@optusnet.com.au>
--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users

Jay Ridgley wrote:

(for some obscure reason my news feed doesn't have Peter's original post)

> Peter Garrett wrote:

>> To those who dislike terse and to-the-point answers: get over it. Those
>> terse but accurate answers are the life blood of a project, and usually
>> come from the people who know the most, and are willing to communicate
>> their knowledge.
>>
>> To those who are used to giving terse-but-correct answers: Ubuntu is
>> not Slackware or Debian, and a few more warm-fuzzies won't hurt you when
>> you deliver your knowledge ;-)

That sums up what I would like to have said very well. One of these days I
want to be just like Peter :-)
--
derek


--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users

On Thu, 2008-06-12 at 19:33 +1000, Peter Garrett wrote:
> I've just spent some time reading through recent threads, and decided
> to throw in some thoughts about the ubuntu-users list over the last few
> years.

Thanks, that was a great post and I think was sorely needed to put
things into perspective.

You are missed on the list, and I hope your other stuff goes well.

Regards
Mario


--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users

On Thu, 2008-06-12 at 13:36 +0200, Markus Schönhaber wrote:
> OTOH, and that's what really annoys me, is that lately most of the
> noise in this group is caused by a single person. Someone who not only
> provides almost no signal himself but even causes tremendous amounts
> of noise with his provoking wrong-claiming posts.

The worst thing is that it overshadows many other threads, and it eats a
lot of the available time of those list members (like myself) that have
decided not to filter this user. I would like to spend the time on the
list on more rewarding help seekers but alas ...

Also, these posts sometimes simply provoke harsh words. I should know
better and just shut up, but when I read stuff like "i never got any
help" when I have personally spent easily an hour or more in total on
this person, and know that lots of others did the same, it sometimes
just flips a switch in my head. Must ... resist.


--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users

Peter Garrett wrote:
> I've just spent some time reading through recent threads, and decided
> to throw in some thoughts about the ubuntu-users list over the last few
> years.
>
> Just to forestall the inevitable: yes, I know about sounder ;-)
>
> Some people with long memories might recall that I used to answer quite
> a few questions here, once upon a time. ;-) Lately other projects and
> concerns have meant that I have not contributed much.
>
> This post will probably be seen as off-topic by some... So be it.
>
> I think that we are seeing the usual evolution of a list as the project
> becomes ever more popular. In 2004-6 (roughly), this list really was
> mostly about technical help and discussion, and I think the
> "demographic" was *similar* to that on, say, a Debian list. As Ubuntu
> has become more and more popular, we have seen an influx of people who
> don't come from the "traditional" Linuxish/*nixish backgrounds. The
> kinds of questions have changed, and the level of discussion has perhaps
> dropped in quality somewhat.
>
> That's a nice way of saying that the signal-to-noise ratio has
> deteriorated ;-)


I agree with you here. I normally use Debian and their user mailing list
is the most on topic, intelligent and civil that I have ever come across
(specially compared to the *unix newsgroups, where all non-gurus are
considered lowly mortals by the snobs). This list also used to be
similar to the Debian user list, but was more, how shall I say this,
vagueish, which is understandably. The users here were not from the
level of technical background familiar to the Debian list users. This
was all okay.

But now, unfortunately, the list has started moving from that vagueish
but still highly useful and technical value (due to the valuable
contributors) towards what a typical Windows XP newsgroup is like. There
all one finds are the vague, cliche and useless responses from the so
called MSVPs for the most part. I usually say that MS newsgroups have
very high entropy; no one knows what is going on there, no one pays any
attention to the real problem at hand and no one really cares about the
users if one encounters a non-common problem. Most of the Microsoft
users newsgroups are filled with messages from MS minions that everyone
should stop pirating Windows and should get a real license.

I very much hope that we do not reach that state of responses here (no,
not the ones regarding the licenses, but the ones to do with technical
knowledge).

But I also understand that as Ubuntu gets popular, it is inevitable that
the technical language and focus here takes a slight hit. For now, I am
fairly confident that we won't be competing with MS newsgroups for chaos

Finally, I also believe that being a bit politer goes a long way in not
offending new users, since they are the ones who are not familiar with
the ways of mailing lists and newsgroups. Friendly corrections work wonders.



--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users

Peter Garrett wrote:

> So in summary:
>
> * the hard-line "teach a man to fish" crowd - sit back and laugh at
> yourselves a bit.
>
> * the "people on this list are rude" crowd - read a little bit about
> Unix and Linux history, and stop expecting everyone to be polite all
> the time.
>
> Ubuntu doesn't mean "don't tread on anyone's toes" - if your toes hurt,
> think a bit about why, and you might come to some interesting
> conclusions.
>
> Here endeth the sermon ;-)


Nice sermon and advice, btw.

Good job!


--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users

Peter Garrett wrote the following on 12.06.2008 11:33

</snip>

nice read. thank you.

--
bye Thilo

key: 0x4A411E09


--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users