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Old 08-25-2012, 09:12 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default How to use Inkscape? - objects and nodes

Hi

today I like to continue learning vector graphics with Linux, by making
an icon. I wonder if it's possible to e.g. add some nodes to a circle I
already made, to transform the circle, so that the circle can become a
hand. Such things are intuitively possible with the iPad's neu.Draw,
unfortunately neu.draw is unstable and crashes more often, than it can
be used and it only can export to Linux, but not import from Linux. I
also installed Xara Xtrem to Linux. What ever Xara should be able to do,
it can't import SVG.
To add a node using Inkscape
this -> http://www.microugly.com/inkscape-quickguide/#add-node doesn't
work for a circle.
After converting a selected object to a path, e.g. a circle, it seems
not to be possible to add a node. By using all the edit node to path
options, it becomes possible to add nodes, but controlling them becomes
a mess.
Is there an easy way to add nodes to a circle, or circle that is
transformed to a path and than just to move the nodes, by keeping the
outline thickness? The circle just should become a palm with fingers,
but the outline shouldn't become thicker or thinner. I can make strange
objects, but not a hand that way.

Btw. I don't want to draw a hand, just the top of a dynamic microphone,
and some other simple objects, but I like to control it, in a way that I
even could draw a hand if needed.

If directly draw a Bezier curve and make the selected segments curves
this might be ok to draw a hand, but not to do less simpler objects and
even drawing a hand that way isn't easy. I'm not talking about drawing
the Praying Hands from Dürer, I'm thinking about much simpler hands like
those ->
http://th02.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2010/306/2/e/study___hands___marge_simpson_by_384sprites-d320yw7.png and other simple objects.

I started some weeks ago and I already asked at the Ubuntu Studio devel
list some other questions, but I've got less time, so I guess I'll ask
some questions from time to time on the users list. There's a Inkscape
forum in German. Somebody else already asked what I wanted to ask too,
so I read the discussion. Yes, it became a discussion, the experts
didn't understand what the user wanted to know, the user only got
idiotic answers, fortunately I found out how to do it myself. It was an
old thread, the person asking this question did stop using Inkscape.

This tutorial does show, what I can do using Inkscape ->
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7C8Qewphn0 What a crap!
This is in a style I want to draw, but the tutorial doesn't show how to
draw it, it just opens a picture like this ->
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag9N7F2friM&feature=related Do they use
Mac or Windows to make good drawings and than import those SVG by
Inkscape? Or do they all take photos of their girlfriends and then draw
paths above of the photos? I can't find a serious video tutorial, e.g.
how to draw such a dog, as in the second tutorial by using Inkscape
only.

Some month ago I teach children how to draw things similar to that dog
with pencils and colors on paper. So at the moment I'm well trained in
drawing such simple things, I'm just unable to use Inkscape.

Regards,
Ralf


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Old 08-25-2012, 10:17 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default How to use Inkscape? - objects and nodes

On Sat, 2012-08-25 at 23:12 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag9N7F2friM&feature=related

Apologize, by all the short and quick views I had to do, I didn't see
that it's a picture drawn with what app ever and then they show how to
draw the dog in a way, they all did with the photos of their
girlfriends, using Inkscape. Does this work better with a Windows
version of Inkscape? If I does it that way on Linux, the Bezier curve
doesn't fit that perfect to everything. Sometimes there aren't movements
when I try to fit the curve to my imagination. I didn't draw the Bezier
above another picture, perhaps it's the only way and to add as much
nodes as possible.

I've got the impression that Inkscape doesn't provide good tools as I
know from neu.Draw. This "Bezier curve"-pencil at least seems to be less
usable with a mouse. Most tutorials only draw balls, deformed animals,
but drawings when control is needed, this perhaps only can be made with
a tablet.

A simple icon perhaps can be drawn using the mouse, however, I guess I
can't start with a circle, but need to start with a Bezier.

At the moment I'm uncertain, if I again should waste time. It looks like
a tablet is needed and that even then the pictures won't become as nice,
as when using a pixel orientated app like GIMP.

YMMV,
Ralf


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Old 08-25-2012, 11:06 PM
HaPK
 
Default How to use Inkscape? - objects and nodes

To draw with vectors is harder than drawing with pixels. To work with Bezier curves you need to understand, a bit, mathematically how they work, and then you may have a bit more control over them.


Even though, to start drawing with vectors only is very difficult, it's easier to have something to begin with, a drawing made by hand or with a tablet, then trace over that. I find out easier to draw Bezier curves with a mouse and keyboard rather than a tablet, with inkscape.



I did this picture using inkscape, ( http://HaPK.deviantart.com/art/Mysticus-320210516?qo=1&catpath=gallery:hapk:51187&order=0& offset=1) but I did some sketches using mypaint and a tablet.



Vectors need more skill, and are suitable for a range of things. But if you prefer using pixels that's ok too.

El 25/08/2012 17:18, "Ralf Mardorf" <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net> escribió:
On Sat, 2012-08-25 at 23:12 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag9N7F2friM&feature=related



Apologize, by all the short and quick views I had to do, I didn't see

that it's a picture drawn with what app ever and then they show how to

draw the dog in a way, they all did with the photos of their

girlfriends, using Inkscape. Does this work better with a Windows

version of Inkscape? If I does it that way on Linux, the Bezier curve

doesn't fit that perfect to everything. Sometimes there aren't movements

when I try to fit the curve to my imagination. I didn't draw the Bezier

above another picture, perhaps it's the only way and to add as much

nodes as possible.



I've got the impression that Inkscape doesn't provide good tools as I

know from neu.Draw. This "Bezier curve"-pencil at least seems to be less

usable with a mouse. Most tutorials only draw balls, deformed animals,

but drawings when control is needed, this perhaps only can be made with

a tablet.



A simple icon perhaps can be drawn using the mouse, however, I guess I

can't start with a circle, but need to start with a Bezier.



At the moment I'm uncertain, if I again should waste time. It looks like

a tablet is needed and that even then the pictures won't become as nice,

as when using a pixel orientated app like GIMP.



YMMV,

Ralf





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Old 08-26-2012, 12:17 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default How to use Inkscape? - objects and nodes

On Sat, 2012-08-25 at 18:06 -0500, HaPK wrote:
> [snip] To work with Bezier curves you need to understand, a bit,
> mathematically how they work, and then you may have a bit more control
> over them.
> [snip] Vectors need more skill, and are suitable for a range of
> things. [snip]

I don't agree. Regarding to Inkscape I do agree, resp. I don't think you
need to know about the math, you need to have the skills to use
Inkscape. IOW you need to know what capabilities/advantages and what
drawbacks it has got and this is very time consuming to learn. You also
need practice in using a mouse or have the gift to use a mouse.

I started with neu.Draw on an iPad and then wanted to continue with
Inkscape.

Here is the example how to make a circle, become a hand:
http://a1.mzstatic.com/us/r1000/077/Purple/v4/6b/0a/b9/6b0ab93e-914c-4514-e7d9-478aff5c9038/mzl.exutsrow.480x480-75.jpg

But you don't need to do it that way, drawing with the finger on an iPad
you already can draw a good curve, that after doing that, in addition is
intuitive to manipulate.

Only drawbacks, it's missing many features Inkscape has got, but most of
them perhaps aren't that important for artists, all those special FX IMO
are more useful for amateurs, but of course, some are missing for
artists too. The other drawbacks are that you only can export, but you
can't import pictures from another OS and that the app isn't stable, it
crashes more often, than you can draw.

But IMO the main advantage is something Inkscape is missing completely,
that you can draw very good using your fingers and that manipulating a
Bezier or object is very easy and doesn't need tons of mouse movements,
resp. doesn't need tons of finger movements.

I don't know vector drawing apps for Windows and Mac, perhaps there are
some proprietary and FLOSS that can be used similar easy as neu.Draw. It
also might be that there are some for Linux too, that I would like.
However, at least Xara doesn't know how to handle SVG. The Wiki claims
it does, I should reboot and test it on different Linux installs, I
didn't use Ubuntu Studio today.

However, if you want to draw Icons for Ubuntu Studio, you can't do it
with pixel orientated apps, because SVG files are needed. I don't know
if I really would contribute with icons, I just wanted to test how long
it takes to make an icon using a vector drawing app. Until now I needed
enough time to make a fresco, but only got an unfinished kindergarten
drawing.

The only good drawings done with Inkscape on YouTube where made by trace
over another drawing, resp. some where ok without doing it that way, but
they where done in a specific style, deformed, airbrush like animals,
plants etc..

Regards,
Ralf




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Old 08-26-2012, 05:06 AM
Melvin Ray Herr
 
Default How to use Inkscape? - objects and nodes

"and this is very time consuming to learn"


In general, the more versatile the tool, the more time consuming it is to learn. I learned to use "paint" effectively in just a few minutes and after several years I'm still learning how to use "photoshop". However, I can now whip out a design that "paint users" haven't ever even dreamed about and do it in just a few minutes.



So my advice is...


If neu.Draw does what you need it to do, great! use it! If it doesn't, then get used to the idea of needing to spend some time learning to use the tools that do work.


Another example that I'm sure you can relate to. If you want basic quick recording of audio, use audacity. If you need more, use ardour, but expect it to require a learning curve.

On Aug 25, 2012 8:17 PM, "Ralf Mardorf" <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net> wrote:
On Sat, 2012-08-25 at 18:06 -0500, HaPK wrote:

> [snip] To work with Bezier curves you need to understand, a bit,

> mathematically how they work, and then you may have a bit more control

> over them.

> [snip] Vectors need more skill, and are suitable for a range of

> things. [snip]



I don't agree. Regarding to Inkscape I do agree, resp. I don't think you

need to know about the math, you need to have the skills to use

Inkscape. IOW you need to know what capabilities/advantages and what

drawbacks it has got and this is very time consuming to learn. You also

need practice in using a mouse or have the gift to use a mouse.



I started with neu.Draw on an iPad and then wanted to continue with

Inkscape.



Here is the example how to make a circle, become a hand:

http://a1.mzstatic.com/us/r1000/077/Purple/v4/6b/0a/b9/6b0ab93e-914c-4514-e7d9-478aff5c9038/mzl.exutsrow.480x480-75.jpg




But you don't need to do it that way, drawing with the finger on an iPad

you already can draw a good curve, that after doing that, in addition is

intuitive to manipulate.



Only drawbacks, it's missing many features Inkscape has got, but most of

them perhaps aren't that important for artists, all those special FX IMO

are more useful for amateurs, but of course, some are missing for

artists too. The other drawbacks are that you only can export, but you

can't import pictures from another OS and that the app isn't stable, it

crashes more often, than you can draw.



But IMO the main advantage is something Inkscape is missing completely,

that you can draw very good using your fingers and that manipulating a

Bezier or object is very easy and doesn't need tons of mouse movements,

resp. doesn't need tons of finger movements.



I don't know vector drawing apps for Windows and Mac, perhaps there are

some proprietary and FLOSS that can be used similar easy as neu.Draw. It

also might be that there are some for Linux too, that I would like.

However, at least Xara doesn't know how to handle SVG. The Wiki claims

it does, I should reboot and test it on different Linux installs, I

didn't use Ubuntu Studio today.



However, if you want to draw Icons for Ubuntu Studio, you can't do it

with pixel orientated apps, because SVG files are needed. I don't know

if I really would contribute with icons, I just wanted to test how long

it takes to make an icon using a vector drawing app. Until now I needed

enough time to make a fresco, but only got an unfinished kindergarten

drawing.



The only good drawings done with Inkscape on YouTube where made by trace

over another drawing, resp. some where ok without doing it that way, but

they where done in a specific style, deformed, airbrush like animals,

plants etc..



Regards,

Ralf









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Old 08-26-2012, 05:13 AM
Melvin Ray Herr
 
Default How to use Inkscape? - objects and nodes

example of what inkscape can create/edit.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Inkscape0.45.png

On Aug 26, 2012 1:06 AM, "Melvin Ray Herr" <stilllearnin@thettpost.com> wrote:

"and this is very time consuming to learn"


In general, the more versatile the tool, the more time consuming it is to learn. I learned to use "paint" effectively in just a few minutes and after several years I'm still learning how to use "photoshop". However, I can now whip out a design that "paint users" haven't ever even dreamed about and do it in just a few minutes.




So my advice is...


If neu.Draw does what you need it to do, great! use it! If it doesn't, then get used to the idea of needing to spend some time learning to use the tools that do work.


Another example that I'm sure you can relate to. If you want basic quick recording of audio, use audacity. If you need more, use ardour, but expect it to require a learning curve.

On Aug 25, 2012 8:17 PM, "Ralf Mardorf" <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net> wrote:

On Sat, 2012-08-25 at 18:06 -0500, HaPK wrote:

> [snip] To work with Bezier curves you need to understand, a bit,

> mathematically how they work, and then you may have a bit more control

> over them.

> [snip] Vectors need more skill, and are suitable for a range of

> things. [snip]



I don't agree. Regarding to Inkscape I do agree, resp. I don't think you

need to know about the math, you need to have the skills to use

Inkscape. IOW you need to know what capabilities/advantages and what

drawbacks it has got and this is very time consuming to learn. You also

need practice in using a mouse or have the gift to use a mouse.



I started with neu.Draw on an iPad and then wanted to continue with

Inkscape.



Here is the example how to make a circle, become a hand:

http://a1.mzstatic.com/us/r1000/077/Purple/v4/6b/0a/b9/6b0ab93e-914c-4514-e7d9-478aff5c9038/mzl.exutsrow.480x480-75.jpg





But you don't need to do it that way, drawing with the finger on an iPad

you already can draw a good curve, that after doing that, in addition is

intuitive to manipulate.



Only drawbacks, it's missing many features Inkscape has got, but most of

them perhaps aren't that important for artists, all those special FX IMO

are more useful for amateurs, but of course, some are missing for

artists too. The other drawbacks are that you only can export, but you

can't import pictures from another OS and that the app isn't stable, it

crashes more often, than you can draw.



But IMO the main advantage is something Inkscape is missing completely,

that you can draw very good using your fingers and that manipulating a

Bezier or object is very easy and doesn't need tons of mouse movements,

resp. doesn't need tons of finger movements.



I don't know vector drawing apps for Windows and Mac, perhaps there are

some proprietary and FLOSS that can be used similar easy as neu.Draw. It

also might be that there are some for Linux too, that I would like.

However, at least Xara doesn't know how to handle SVG. The Wiki claims

it does, I should reboot and test it on different Linux installs, I

didn't use Ubuntu Studio today.



However, if you want to draw Icons for Ubuntu Studio, you can't do it

with pixel orientated apps, because SVG files are needed. I don't know

if I really would contribute with icons, I just wanted to test how long

it takes to make an icon using a vector drawing app. Until now I needed

enough time to make a fresco, but only got an unfinished kindergarten

drawing.



The only good drawings done with Inkscape on YouTube where made by trace

over another drawing, resp. some where ok without doing it that way, but

they where done in a specific style, deformed, airbrush like animals,

plants etc..



Regards,

Ralf









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Old 08-26-2012, 06:50 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default How to use Inkscape? - objects and nodes

On Sun, 2012-08-26 at 01:06 -0400, Melvin Ray Herr wrote:
> "and this is very time consuming to learn"
>
> In general, the more versatile the tool, the more time consuming it is
> to learn. I learned to use "paint" effectively in just a few minutes
> and after several years I'm still learning how to use "photoshop".
> However, I can now whip out a design that "paint users" haven't ever
> even dreamed about and do it in just a few minutes.
>
> So my advice is...
>
> If neu.Draw does what you need it to do, great! use it! If it doesn't,
> then get used to the idea of needing to spend some time learning to
> use the tools that do work.
>
> Another example that I'm sure you can relate to. If you want basic
> quick recording of audio, use audacity. If you need more, use ardour,
> but expect it to require a learning curve.

I didn't need much time to use GIMP and Ardour2. Well, today they change
GIMP with every release and it becomes less good usable and I'm for sure
not the only one who dislikes new versions of GIMP, however it's still
usable within some minutes. I heard that new versions of Photoshop
should also be less good usable, the artists I know use oldish versions
of Photoshop and they payed a lot of money for the upgrades, but only
get useless special FX. I don't know any artist using vector graphics,
but seemingly a lot of artists use vector graphics.
IMO there are intuitive workflows, e.g. using Ardour2 is near to the
usage of analog gear. I didn't had issues using old Photoshop and old
GIMP myself and never heard of somebody having issues.
The people I know and myself started making music and drawing before
computers were available for everybody and later in the 80s I started
making music with a C64, then with the Atari, serious drawing wasn't
possible at that time.
Perhaps the workflows nowadays aren't made for people of my generation.
OTOH I suspect that also young people switched to Xfce , to get back
an old faithful workflow.

So my criticism isn't about the complexity, but the workflow.

FWIW the workflow already starts with how to handle startup and I
suspect that a lot of old computer users soon or later will drop Linux.
It might be that at least 'm just a dino.

On Sun, 2012-08-26 at 01:13 -0400, Melvin Ray Herr wrote:
example of what inkscape can create/edit.
>
> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Inkscape0.45.png

No doubt about it, this isn't a deformed animal, but it's still airbrush
like. A painting like this by airbrush or by brush or by a pixel drawing
app does take a long time too. I've got doubts that the outlines where
drawn directly with a mouse. It looks a lot like a classic drawing,
perhaps it was traced against a drawing or photo.

Regards,
Ralf


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Old 08-26-2012, 07:05 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default How to use Inkscape? - objects and nodes

On Sun, 2012-08-26 at 08:50 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Sun, 2012-08-26 at 01:13 -0400, Melvin Ray Herr wrote:
> example of what inkscape can create/edit.
> >
> > http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Inkscape0.45.png
>
> No doubt about it, this isn't a deformed animal, but it's still airbrush
> like. A painting like this by airbrush or by brush or by a pixel drawing
> app does take a long time too. I've got doubts that the outlines where
> drawn directly with a mouse. It looks a lot like a classic drawing,
> perhaps it was traced against a drawing or photo.
>
> Regards,
> Ralf

PS: Nobody can pay for Layout pencils and the needed paper nowadays, but
with Layout pencils you'll get a very similar result in a few minutes.
Of course, such pencil drawings don't last for very long.

So, I'm not against working with a computer . I'm just skeptic that
Inkscape is ok. When I asked about apps that can replace screen tone on
the US devel list, nobody knows a Linux app. If you ask for good NLVE
the coders explain why we don't have it for Linux. So it's not a shame,
since programing complex good apps is expensive and often can't be done
by FLOSS, resp. programing a good app like Ardour2 did take a long time,
some years ago Linux audio was unusable.




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Old 08-26-2012, 08:09 AM
bart deruyter
 
Default How to use Inkscape? - objects and nodes

I am sceptic too about workflow and ease of working to get to a certain result but in my opinion though, many, if not most think in a strange way about the tools and workflows offered.
It's like the discussion I've heard oh so often about synthesizers and synthesized sounds, discussions about the most realistic and natural sounds of which synthesizer. Synthesizers are synthesized, hence artificial sounding by definition. If you want realistic sounds, buy a sampler go out and sample the sounds from where they come.


The same thing counts for drawing and graphics in general.*If you want a real drawing on a computer, grab a pencil and paper and draw, then scan it in.If you want digital images, use your computer, fiddle around with vector graphics or 3D graphics or even gimp, mypaint and equivalents.*


Don't turn things around, and try to get a analog result with digital tools, or a digital result with analog tools. I don't use my classical guitar to create a techno beat. I use a sequencer and a drumcomputer and neither do I try to create a classical guitar-tune using fluidsynth or even linuxsampler... I grab my guitar and play it.




http://www.bartart3d.be/
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On Twitter
On Identi.ca
On Google+






2012/8/26 Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net>


On Sun, 2012-08-26 at 08:50 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> On Sun, 2012-08-26 at 01:13 -0400, Melvin Ray Herr wrote:

> example of what inkscape can create/edit.

> >

> > http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Inkscape0.45.png

>

> No doubt about it, this isn't a deformed animal, but it's still airbrush

> like. A painting like this by airbrush or by brush or by a pixel drawing

> app does take a long time too. I've got doubts that the outlines where

> drawn directly with a mouse. It looks a lot like a classic drawing,

> perhaps it was traced against a drawing or photo.

>

> Regards,

> Ralf



PS: Nobody can pay for Layout pencils and the needed paper nowadays, but

with Layout pencils you'll get a very similar result in a few minutes.

Of course, such pencil drawings don't last for very long.



So, I'm not against working with a computer . I'm just skeptic that

Inkscape is ok. When I asked about apps that can replace screen tone on

the US devel list, nobody knows a Linux app. If you ask for good NLVE

the coders explain why we don't have it for Linux. So it's not a shame,

since programing complex good apps is expensive and often can't be done

by FLOSS, resp. programing a good app like Ardour2 did take a long time,

some years ago Linux audio was unusable.









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Old 08-26-2012, 08:25 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default How to use Inkscape? - objects and nodes

On Sun, 2012-08-26 at 10:09 +0200, bart deruyter wrote:

> If you want a real drawing on a computer, grab a pencil and paper and
> draw, then scan it in.
> If you want digital images, use your computer, fiddle around with
> vector graphics or 3D graphics or even gimp, mypaint and equivalents.

If you need svg for icons you can't paint with a pencil on paper and
simply scan it . After scanning an outline drawing, it's nice to work
with an app like GIMP. Inkscape allows to draw Bezier curves, over the
outlines you already have drawn and then scanned. I wonder if there's no
way to automate this, instead of using tons of mouse movements and mouse
clicks. Isn't there some kind of magnetic lasso for Bezire curves? Or at
least some functionality as I described is provided by neu.Draw, where
it's possible to add some nodes to objects as a circle, while handling
those nodes also is easier, than it is for Inkscape. Perhaps Inkscape
has got all that functionality, but I can't find it.

Regards,
Ralf



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