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Dave Woyciesjes 05-30-2012 03:53 PM

New to this list -
 
I'm getting the itch to start attempting to compose music. I'm
looking for recommendations on a decent, fairly easy to use program(s).
I'll start with just using the mouse and computer keyboard to
layout the notes. Eventually I'll probably connect my MIDI/USB Casio to
lay down the music.
Needs to be multi track (drums, guitar, bass, etc..). Once I get
the tracks laid down, I may even hook my 5 string bass to the line in.
If there is an application to apply effects to that, even more fun. But
that's later on...


I guess what I'm looking to do is compose & record to wav (the
compress/convert to mp3) all on the computer. Eventually I'd try using
the MIDI/USB keyboard to "write" some parts into the program.
I'm geussing I'd probably need a different application, if I want
to add a line-in source to the song during mixing.


Suggestions?


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Daniel Worth 05-30-2012 10:04 PM

New to this list -
 
On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:53 AM, Dave Woyciesjes <woyciesjes@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

* *I'm getting the itch to start attempting to compose music. I'm looking for recommendations on a decent, fairly easy to use program(s).

* *I'll start with just using the mouse and computer keyboard to layout the notes. Eventually I'll probably connect my MIDI/USB Casio to lay down the music.

* *Needs to be multi track (drums, guitar, bass, etc..). Once I get the tracks laid down, I may even hook my 5 string bass to the line in. If there is an application to apply effects to that, even more fun. But that's later on...




*I guess what I'm looking to do is compose & record to wav (the compress/convert to mp3) all on the computer. Eventually I'd try using the MIDI/USB keyboard to "write" some parts into the program.


* *I'm geussing I'd probably need a different application, if I want to add a line-in source to the song during mixing.

All of this is possible using Ardour.

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bart deruyter 05-31-2012 06:56 AM

New to this list -
 
That means a midi and audio capable DAW.

All of it in Ardour? That's new to me, well, with Ardour 3 yes, but without a printable score. The official release isn't out yet... it's still beta. It has midi support though.



Rosegarden does it all, and with a score. But I'm not a fan of it... I had too many issues with it, but it might work out well for you.

My guess is, wait for Ardour 3 to release a stable version, download, install (installer is really easy) and try it out. Then you'll have a audio/midi recording app of huge quality.



If you can't wait, try the beta, but don't use it for real work, just for testing and getting familiar with it.

grtz,

Bart

http://www.bartart3d.be/


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2012/5/31 Daniel Worth <pipemanmusic@gmail.com>




On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:53 AM, Dave Woyciesjes <woyciesjes@sbcglobal.net> wrote:



* *I'm getting the itch to start attempting to compose music. I'm looking for recommendations on a decent, fairly easy to use program(s).

* *I'll start with just using the mouse and computer keyboard to layout the notes. Eventually I'll probably connect my MIDI/USB Casio to lay down the music.

* *Needs to be multi track (drums, guitar, bass, etc..). Once I get the tracks laid down, I may even hook my 5 string bass to the line in. If there is an application to apply effects to that, even more fun. But that's later on...






*I guess what I'm looking to do is compose & record to wav (the compress/convert to mp3) all on the computer. Eventually I'd try using the MIDI/USB keyboard to "write" some parts into the program.




* *I'm geussing I'd probably need a different application, if I want to add a line-in source to the song during mixing.

All of this is possible using Ardour.


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Hartmut Noack 05-31-2012 08:30 AM

New to this list -
 
Am 31.05.2012 08:56, schrieb bart deruyter:

That means a midi and audio capable DAW.

All of it in Ardour? That's new to me, well, with Ardour 3 yes, but without
a printable score.


There are Workarounds. You can import the midi-files from the
project-folder to a software, that can print them.



The official release isn't out yet... it's still beta.
It has midi support though.


The recent Betas do work quite good. I have spent dozens of houres
working in them whithout any trouble.




Rosegarden does it all, and with a score. But I'm not a fan of it... I had
too many issues with it, but it might work out well for you.

My guess is, wait for Ardour 3 to release a stable version, download,
install (installer is really easy) and try it out. Then you'll have a
audio/midi recording app of huge quality.

If you can't wait, try the beta, but don't use it for real work, just for
testing and getting familiar with it.

grtz,

Bart

http://www.bartart3d.be/
On facebook<https://www.facebook.com/pages/BartArt3D/169488999795102>
On Twitter<https://twitter.com/#%21/Bart_Issimo>
On Identi.ca<http://identi.ca/bartart3d>
On Google+<https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/116379400376517483499/>



2012/5/31 Daniel Worth<pipemanmusic@gmail.com>




On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:53 AM, Dave Woyciesjes<woyciesjes@sbcglobal.net

wrote:



I'm getting the itch to start attempting to compose music. I'm looking
for recommendations on a decent, fairly easy to use program(s).
I'll start with just using the mouse and computer keyboard to layout
the notes. Eventually I'll probably connect my MIDI/USB Casio to lay down
the music.
Needs to be multi track (drums, guitar, bass, etc..). Once I get the
tracks laid down, I may even hook my 5 string bass to the line in. If there
is an application to apply effects to that, even more fun. But that's later
on...

I guess what I'm looking to do is compose& record to wav (the
compress/convert to mp3) all on the computer. Eventually I'd try using the
MIDI/USB keyboard to "write" some parts into the program.
I'm geussing I'd probably need a different application, if I want to
add a line-in source to the song during mixing.



All of this is possible using Ardour.

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Ralf Mardorf 05-31-2012 09:08 AM

New to this list -
 
On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 08:56 +0200, bart deruyter wrote:
> That means a midi and audio capable DAW.
>
> All of it in Ardour?

Ardour2 is for audio only and Ardour 3 for audio and MIDI. While Ardour2
is the best software for audio, Ardour3 for MIDI still has got serious
lacks. I'm an old school MIDI user from the 80's, for MIDI (with less
audio) I recommend to use Qtractor.

> That's new to me, well, with Ardour 3 yes, but without a printable
> score. The official release isn't out yet... it's still beta. It has
> midi support though.

Dunno which Linux app is the best to print scores, but Rosegarden is for
audio, MIDI and MIDI score and perhaps one of the most used
"sequencers".

> Rosegarden does it all, and with a score. But I'm not a fan of it... I
> had too many issues with it, but it might work out well for you.

+1

> My guess is, wait for Ardour 3 to release a stable version, download,
> install (installer is really easy) and try it out. Then you'll have a
> audio/midi recording app of huge quality.

IMO at the moment the way MIDI is implemented is a little bit bizarre.

- Ralf


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Melvin Ray Herr 05-31-2012 11:04 AM

New to this list -
 
Ralf,


Can you explain why you think Ardour 3's implementation of MIDI is a little bit bizarre? I.E. do you think there are some features missing or is it hard to use? Please explain... I'm wondering because a lot of people really seem to like it.



-MRH

On May 31, 2012 5:09 AM, "Ralf Mardorf" <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net> wrote:
On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 08:56 +0200, bart deruyter wrote:

> That means a midi and audio capable DAW.

>

> All of it in Ardour?



Ardour2 is for audio only and Ardour 3 for audio and MIDI. While Ardour2

is the best software for audio, Ardour3 for MIDI still has got serious

lacks. I'm an old school MIDI user from the 80's, for MIDI (with less

audio) I recommend to use Qtractor.



> That's new to me, well, with Ardour 3 yes, but without a printable

> score. The official release isn't out yet... it's still beta. It has

> midi support though.



Dunno which Linux app is the best to print scores, but Rosegarden is for

audio, MIDI and MIDI score and perhaps one of the most used

"sequencers".



> Rosegarden does it all, and with a score. But I'm not a fan of it... I

> had too many issues with it, but it might work out well for you.



+1



> My guess is, wait for Ardour 3 to release a stable version, download,

> install (installer is really easy) and try it out. Then you'll have a

> audio/midi recording app of huge quality.



IMO at the moment the way MIDI is implemented is a little bit bizarre.



- Ralf





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bart deruyter 05-31-2012 11:55 AM

New to this list -
 
Perhaps we're getting off-topic a bit, but is there actually a midi sequencer in the open source world that one could call 'fantastic' and is as reliable as Ardour has been so far?
So far I've always bumped on applications that are buggy as hell, still in development, unmaintained, limited in features or not able to follow new technologies etc...*

I've tried out seq24, qtractor, rosegarden, muse, I even tried openoctave, but all have failed in my tests or requirements. Rosegarden came out best, but as I said, with lot's of issues (latency in playback and recording, crashes, it even manages to crash my XV88, which is connected with a midi cable, softsynths that don't work, crashing my audiofire12 on exit...)


I'd love to hear about such an app.


About Ardour 3, it might be limited and look weird for midi indeed, but when stable, it will at least be stable and do what it has to do, record, edit and playback midi. Never recommend beta-stage software to unexperienced people though, certainly not newbies in linux audio, and certainly not to do real work, beta is beta and you can almost count on it you'll have crashes, data loss etc...*


For writing scores I use lilypond, a very steep learning curve, but superb output,

even better then it's propietary alternatives that have a gui and drag and drop system. Otherwise Musescore*

is a good alternative, though it has some limitations.


grtz,


Bart

http://www.bartart3d.be/


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2012/5/31 Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net>


On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 08:56 +0200, bart deruyter wrote:

> That means a midi and audio capable DAW.

>

> All of it in Ardour?



Ardour2 is for audio only and Ardour 3 for audio and MIDI. While Ardour2

is the best software for audio, Ardour3 for MIDI still has got serious

lacks. I'm an old school MIDI user from the 80's, for MIDI (with less

audio) I recommend to use Qtractor.



> That's new to me, well, with Ardour 3 yes, but without a printable

> score. The official release isn't out yet... it's still beta. It has

> midi support though.



Dunno which Linux app is the best to print scores, but Rosegarden is for

audio, MIDI and MIDI score and perhaps one of the most used

"sequencers".



> Rosegarden does it all, and with a score. But I'm not a fan of it... I

> had too many issues with it, but it might work out well for you.



+1



> My guess is, wait for Ardour 3 to release a stable version, download,

> install (installer is really easy) and try it out. Then you'll have a

> audio/midi recording app of huge quality.



IMO at the moment the way MIDI is implemented is a little bit bizarre.



- Ralf





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Ralf Mardorf 05-31-2012 12:38 PM

New to this list -
 
On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 13:55 +0200, bart deruyter wrote:
> Perhaps we're getting off-topic a bit, but is there actually a midi
> sequencer in the open source world that one could call 'fantastic' and
> is as reliable as Ardour has been so far?

No there's no "fantastic" Linux sequencer. Is there a fantastic
sequencer for .e.g. Windows? I still own the last legal version of
Cubase for the Atari, this is a fantastic sequencer, much better than
the Cubase sequencer for Windows.
What does "fantastic" for you mean? I still recommend to use Qtractor,
but don't upgrade it, if you've got a stable version.
Even if the sequencer application should fit to your needs, you still
could run into trouble regarding to MIDI jitter.

> So far I've always bumped on applications that are buggy as hell,
> still in development, unmaintained, limited in features or not able to
> follow new technologies etc...
> I've tried out seq24, qtractor, rosegarden, muse, I even tried
> openoctave, but all have failed in my tests or requirements.

Subscribing to Qtractor devel mailing list could improve your usage of
Qtractor. Rui (the coder) usually fix bugs within some minutes or at
least some hours.

> Rosegarden came out best, but as I said, with lot's of issues
> (latency in playback and recording

Latency or jitter?

A fixed latency shouldn't be an issue, jitter is an issue, but there are
ways to get less jitter.

> , crashes, it even manages to crash my XV88, which is connected with a
> midi cable, softsynths that don't work, crashing my audiofire12 on
> exit...)

Crashes are common when using Linux MIDI sequencers, especially with
fluid-dssi. I restart my sessions by a shell script.

> I'd love to hear about such an app.

Me too. Did you test energyXT? I didn't test it.

> About Ardour 3, it might be limited and look weird for midi indeed,
> but when stable, it will at least be stable and do what it has to do,
> record, edit and playback midi.

I couldn't use Ardour3 to edit MIDI events. YMMV!

> Never recommend beta-stage software to unexperienced people though,
> certainly not newbies in linux audio, and certainly not to do real
> work, beta is beta and you can almost count on it you'll have crashes,
> data loss etc...

A lot of Linux audio/MIDI software is version 0.x ;).

> lilypond

Isn't lilypond used by Rosegarden too?

2 Cents,
Ralf



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Daniel Worth 05-31-2012 02:35 PM

New to this list -
 
That means a midi and audio capable DAW.

All of it in Ardour? That's new to me, well, with Ardour 3 yes, but without a printable score. The official release isn't out yet... it's still beta. It has midi support though.




Rosegarden does it all, and with a score. But I'm not a fan of it... I had too many issues with it, but it might work out well for you.

My guess is, wait for Ardour 3 to release a stable version, download, install (installer is really easy) and try it out. Then you'll have a audio/midi recording app of huge quality.




If you can't wait, try the beta, but don't use it for real work, just for testing and getting familiar with it.

grtz,

Bart

Ardour 3 is in feature freeze and this is the final beta before the first stable release. The only way you are going to get acceptable score output would be to use something like Lilypond or one of it's front ends.


Also to say Ardour lacks any midi functionality sounds a bit disingenuous unless you can list what you can't do with it, other than notation editor.

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Ralf Mardorf 05-31-2012 03:26 PM

New to this list -
 
On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 08:35 -0600, Daniel Worth wrote:


> Also to say Ardour lacks any midi functionality sounds a bit
> disingenuous unless you can list what you can't do with it, other than
> notation editor.

Editing MIDI events is an issue for all Linux MIDI sequencers, but last
time I used Ardour3 it was more painful than for Qtractor.
- move, transform, edit CC and other events
Something missing for all Linux sequencers I know are
- move MIDI events by ticks
- negative offset delay by ticks or ms
- BPM sync to e.g. audio delays
- real time sys ex editors for synth like the Matrix-1000
- lock tracks for polyrhythm, not only for exotic music, but to keep
sound FX for film in sync, while the BPM of the music are changing
- SMPTE, MTC (for good reasons an issue, SMPTE due to resampling, MTC
due to a lack of the MIDI specifications)
- running status off ;p
- [...]

I experienced that for Qtractor sometimes are workarounds possible,
while for Ardour3 there's too much missing.

What I didn't test with Ardour are serious issue I get with Qtractor.
MIDI tracks for external (hw) MIDI gets out of sync with internal MIDI
tracks and audio tracks when loop playing. MIDI volume CC vs the
settings of Yoshimi. [...]

What sequencer to use depends to the needs and workflow. Some might say
an arpeggiator, CC filters etc. should be part of a sequencers, others
don't want it.

Regards,
Ralf


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