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Old 02-16-2008, 12:05 PM
"Cory K."
 
Default Yet another Vinyl vs. CD/Digital debate

hollunder@gmx.at wrote:
> Hartmut, have you ever been to hydrogenaudio.org ?
> The site is mainly about lossless and lossy audio formats but also a lot
> about listening tests, and how to do them properly.
> I think many people in that forum would love to see
> proper double-blind-test results that show that you can hear the
> difference between for example 24/96 and 16/44.1.

> Best Regards
> Philipp

Ok. Let's split off this thread. Shoulda been done a while ago. If some
replies the same time as I send this, re-title the response to that.
Really, we have a number of threads like this lately and it becomes
really hard to search for relevant info.

And don't respond to my post in this thread.

-Cory

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Old 02-16-2008, 01:01 PM
"Luis de Bethencourt"
 
Default Yet another Vinyl vs. CD/Digital debate

As an ex-DJ who only spined with vinyl, I must say the real benefit of
vinyl over CD is the manipulative (as in manual like hand) touch of
the format. To speed up, slow down, seek to an other time in the
track... it's all done in a very artesan way with your hands, it is
the real benefit of an analog format.

The difference of the sound... vinyl seams more dynamic because it
performs really well in low ranges but not so much in high ranges,
higher frequencies are shorter and need a more precise wave, and the
drawing inside a vinyl has it's limits (33'1/3 ~ 45'1/2). Vinyl is
great for singles, but not so good for a whole album... the closer to
the center the less precise the wave is (it spins at the same speed
and the lenght is smaller). But it does look darn cool.

CD is persistent, performs well in all ranges and uses the paradigm of
having double a human can percieve. Plus it's a lossless format,
meaning each playback doesn't degrade the quality of the record,
avoiding the characteristic glitch sounds in a vinyl. And very
comfortable to use.

All that said, the analog vs digital sound is a pointless debate once
any of them passes through a digital sound system (including the
speakers).

I see it like a black and white film photography vs color digital
photography. If you love the feel of the grain in film and the artsy
look of black and white, you are definitely going to enjoy more that
type of photography. If you are looking for the benefits of an
improving digital world, go with a DSLR.

I personally love both formats and have a mountain of vinyl records of
clubs that where going to through them away because of the loss of
quality (they usually buy a few copies of the hits planning this
ahead). And I also have my evergrowing collection of CD's.

My two cents,
Luis de Bethencourt

On Feb 16, 2008 2:05 PM, Cory K. <coryisatm@nc.rr.com> wrote:
> hollunder@gmx.at wrote:
> > Hartmut, have you ever been to hydrogenaudio.org ?
> > The site is mainly about lossless and lossy audio formats but also a lot
> > about listening tests, and how to do them properly.
> > I think many people in that forum would love to see
> > proper double-blind-test results that show that you can hear the
> > difference between for example 24/96 and 16/44.1.
>
> > Best Regards
> > Philipp
>
> Ok. Let's split off this thread. Shoulda been done a while ago. If some
> replies the same time as I send this, re-title the response to that.
> Really, we have a number of threads like this lately and it becomes
> really hard to search for relevant info.
>
> And don't respond to my post in this thread.
>
> -Cory
>
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Old 02-16-2008, 02:00 PM
"Christopher Stamper"
 
Default Yet another Vinyl vs. CD/Digital debate

I've never even seen a vinyl or whatever else. So I have no idea what your talking about.

But if it has ANY crackles at all, I think I would hate it. Everyone always says it sounds good, but I think I just heard enough... :-)


On Feb 16, 2008 9:55 AM, Pietro Bergamo <bergamopietro@yahoo.com.br> wrote:



Dave Ricketzz <boontooz@yahoo.com>


>A 45 RPM 12" single is hard to beat.

Yes, in dynamics and frequency response in ideal conditions. But honestly the crackles do annoy me and since I rarely have an absolutely silent room with a perfect system, I think I prefer digital formats. At least I don't have and aleatory percussionist playing along with the music. :^)








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Old 02-16-2008, 02:05 PM
Yvan Vander Sanden
 
Default Yet another Vinyl vs. CD/Digital debate

Christopher Stamper wrote:
> I've never even seen a vinyl or whatever else. So I have no idea what
> your talking about.

Aww. Am I the only one who's feeling very old right now?



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Old 02-16-2008, 02:07 PM
Dave Ricketzz
 
Default Yet another Vinyl vs. CD/Digital debate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Edison_and_phonograph_edit2.jpg


Christopher Stamper <christopherstamper@gmail.com> wrote: I've never even seen a vinyl or whatever else. So I have no idea what your talking about.

But if it has ANY crackles at all, I think I would hate it. Everyone always says it sounds good, but I think I just heard enough... :-)

On Feb 16, 2008 9:55 AM, Pietro Bergamo <bergamopietro@yahoo.com.br> wrote:

Dave Ricketzz <boontooz@yahoo.com>

>A 45 RPM 12" single is hard to beat.

Yes, in dynamics and frequency response in ideal conditions. But honestly the crackles do annoy me and since I rarely have an absolutely silent room with a perfect system, I think I prefer digital formats. At least I don't have and aleatory percussionist playing along with the music. :^)




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Old 02-16-2008, 02:15 PM
"Luis de Bethencourt"
 
Default Yet another Vinyl vs. CD/Digital debate

On Feb 16, 2008 4:05 PM, Yvan Vander Sanden <yvan@youngmusic.org> wrote:
> Christopher Stamper wrote:
> > I've never even seen a vinyl or whatever else. So I have no idea what
> > your talking about.
>
> Aww. Am I the only one who's feeling very old right now?
>

Not really. The stores where I buy music sell new albums in vinyl. So
they are still around there, is not a generation clash.

I bought Portishead - Dummy in vinyl a few years back just to have it.
It's pretty.

Luis de Bethencourt

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Old 02-16-2008, 02:45 PM
"D. Michael McIntyre"
 
Default Yet another Vinyl vs. CD/Digital debate

On Saturday 16 February 2008, Christopher Stamper wrote:

> I've never even seen a vinyl or whatever else. So I have no idea what
> [you're] talking about.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WIBnX4tJh7A

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Old 02-16-2008, 03:17 PM
 
Default Yet another Vinyl vs. CD/Digital debate

*
Ok, as a fellow audiophile I have too put my word in.
First lets look at the prices of top of the line components. For all the interchangable and truly customizable setup the phonograph has the most options, with many different types of cartridges, arms, motors, pre-amps etc. YOu can easlily get a $100,000 phonograph. The most expensive CD player I have seen (please post others) was $45,000 NAim.
Secon: Todays recordings are in a digital world. Everything is recorded digitally. But at 24-bit "picture" of the wave at a 96KHZ bandwidth. This is compressed t oa 16-bit 44.1KHZ CD image. However, when the master for the record is made lasers are used to create and exact picture of the wave captured by the microphone with the accuracy of the 24-hbit recording. Or in true analog recordings a true reproduction. Giving you with vinyl a more spactious sound with much mroe depth and dynamic constrast without drowing out the other instruments because of there relation to vinal. That is the danger with 24-bit mixes going to a CD somthing that you hear (viloins in a metal song) on the 24-bit recording which are identifiable could be lost by the compression of the CD. With a vinyl done right you wont lose the highs and clarity of ALL the channels.
The negatives to vinyl
I will try to explain this the best I can from what I know feel free to correct thes section and repost if you know I am wrong.
With the records you loose your bass response and bass curve because the tone arm and catridge with its mass can absorb the low frequencys as they pass by the needle for the same reson that there low. When the frequency is lower that means there is less cycles per second and the tone arm moves with the notes rather than the needle because it has time too. Thats why customizing a turntable is such an important thing to get the right balance and match for the other components to create and accurate reproduction in sound.
The positives of CD. Cost
However in terms of more accurate spatious dynamically efficient sound, records will produce the beswt sound so long as there is good equipment. If I was to go to Best Buy to build a listening system for records vs cds. The Cd would most definatly win. If I wen't to classic stero with a good turntable and hi-fi recording, and used there B&W 802Ds (If you don't know B&W you might not wan't to be a part of this conversation) on Krell amplifiers, not to mention the really sweet Denon reciever and krell preamps. (No subs required but*available*for when you want to absolutly make yourself deaf with zero distortion equally represented sound or if your a movie fan) That system even with the Naim $45,000 Cd player with a standard formant CD the record is going to win hands down.
*
Also with tube amps and preamps vinyl would also beat the CD in terms of tone quality.
*
What would out do vinyl is the 24-bit 96K recording or even and HD-Audio AES/EBU interface would win. So long as that is the original audio quality level. Eventually with HD-DVDs or Blu-Ray whichever wins*the vinyl audio will be lost to digital. But still not a true replacment to the tone provided with an all analog recording combined with a*all analog*tube system.*
*
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "D. Michael McIntyre" <michael.mcintyre@rosegardenmusic.com>

> On Saturday 16 February 2008, Christopher Stamper wrote:
>
> > I've never even seen a vinyl or whatever else. So I have no idea what
> > [you're] talking about.
>
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=WIBnX4tJh7A
>
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> D. Michael McIntyre
>
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Old 02-16-2008, 03:21 PM
 
Default Yet another Vinyl vs. CD/Digital debate

*
The right player combined with taken care of records, the crakle should be minimal*to none. Proveded you spend way to much for the average joe for an audiophile set up. As I said before vinyl will win, but the affordablilty and decent quality of good CDs, and the advent of SACDs, and DVD audio. It really will not be worth the price for the added quality of audio.
*
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Christopher Stamper" <christopherstamper@gmail.com>
I've never even seen a vinyl or whatever else. So I have no idea what your talking about.

But if it has ANY crackles at all, I think I would hate it. Everyone always says it sounds good, but I think I just heard enough... :-)


On Feb 16, 2008 9:55 AM, Pietro Bergamo <bergamopietro@yahoo.com.br> wrote:






Dave Ricketzz <boontooz@yahoo.com>



>A 45 RPM 12" single is hard to beat.

Yes, in dynamics and frequency response in ideal conditions. But honestly the crackles do annoy me and since I rarely have an absolutely silent room with a perfect system, I think I prefer digital formats. At least I don't have and aleatory percussionist playing along with the music. :^)










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Old 02-16-2008, 04:26 PM
Dave Ricketzz
 
Default Yet another Vinyl vs. CD/Digital debate

I'm fairly certain the master is cut with a heated stylus being driven by heavy duty coils being driven by audio amplifiers.* The cutting head travels straight across the blank, and a good playback system mimics this mechanism as closely as possible.

Evan <deepthinker22@comcast.net> wrote: *... However, when the master for the record is made lasers are used to create and exact picture of the wave captured by the microphone...


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