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Old 05-20-2011, 12:36 PM
Hartmut Noack
 
Default Sound cards (Was: no sound

Am 20.05.2011 13:54, schrieb Ralf Mardorf:

On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 12:48 +0200, Robert Klaar wrote:

Any Rme card is good, although they're a bit expensive. Didn't have to
do a thing to get my hdsp 9632 working.


Hi Robert

the main reason to switch the sound cards is the audio sound quality.
I'm able to pay around 700,- EUR / 800,- EUR (right now, regarding to my
"profession", I usually don't have any money). Btw. I noticed that not
only my sound cards do cause loss. When recording soft synth just by
JACK, without the sound cards being involved, there's a loss for the
sound quality too!


No, there is none.

Any software, that generates sounds from scratch like a softsynth wil
produce exactly the same stream with any soun card. In fact such
software will even generate the very same stream if no soundcard exists.


And if you record such a stream with Jack you simply store that very
stream bit by bit.


I assure you, you get the very same data in a recording via Jack if you
play the same patch of the same synth on a work station with a RME
Hammerfall or on a Laptop with a built-in HDA.


The only level on wich a soundcard is related to a softsynth is the one
on wich you actually hear the stream. And some synths can render
differntly, if Jack is running at 96KHz instead of 48 or 44.1.

But this has only remotely to do with the sound card let alone its quality.


And soft synth already do sound less good than real
old synth. Unfortunately those real old synth can break and there're no
microchips available to repair those synth, resp. they are hard to get,
very expensive and without warranty.

My two TerraTec EWX 24/96 needs to be replaced,


Tell me where you dump them, these 2 more stereo-dacs would be most
welcome in my box ;-)


All the trouble with the envy24-cards is related to (mis)configuration
and to stupidities like automatically zeroing all channels caused by PA
in most cases.
As of now these problems can be solved by the user. They are *not*
acceptable, they are bugs that need to be solved. But these bugs are not
show-stoppers.



before I don't have got
the money anymore. FWIW S/PDIF doesn't work for my Ubuntu Studio with
the TerraTecs, hence I can't use "good analog IOs" that would be
available via S/PDIF. Btw. "good analog IOs" in this context does mean
consumer DAT Sony DTC-670 and Aiwa HD-S1, both are without any loss of
sound quality, when listening by my consumer equipment. At least good
consumer sound quality is what I expect of a "professional" sound card,
even if internal Linux there still would be loss caused by JACK or
caused by what issue ever.


Jack does not cause any "loss in sound-quality" because Jack does not
have any influence on the way, the pcm-stream is produced by the
driver/sound-card.



Once Brauner borrowed me a Mac with a Motu
firewire device.


The MOTUs are quite okayish and they sound exactly the same on any
system that supports them.



the Mac's sound quality


There is no such thing.
No Mac-expert would endorse something like a special "Mac-related" sound
quality. Do not mix that up with "sound performance" that has to do with
latencies and stability but *not* with how good it sounds in the end.


You know why? Because no professional would want to buy/use any
computer/OS, that attempts to manipulate the sound produced from a
pro-interface, be it for better or worse.
OS/Driver etc *has* to be absolutely neutral in that, everything else is
"super-bass-enancer" nonsense that one my expect in a cheap MP3-player
but certainly *not* in a computer-system built for pros.



accomplished this requirement! No, I'm not using Brauner microphones for
my home studio , all I need is good consumer sound quality.


All your experience is fired by the real quality of the DAC/ADC-hardware
on the cards you have used and to some extend may be influenced by
mixer-settings.



no offence ment but RTFM please.


best regs
HZN



Two question about the RME card, I'll read more about sound cards later
and during the weekend and maybe I'll order a card next week.

http://www.thomann.de/gb/search_dir.html?xsid=294c1645e0e16b761c35fa8f9ebce c51&sw=HDSP+9632&x=0&y=0

At a max of 4 analog IOs? The unbalanced breakout cables are part of the
product content?

Cheers!

Ralf





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Old 05-20-2011, 12:37 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Sound cards (Was: no sound

On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 14:04 +0200, Thomas Orgis wrote:
> Am Fri, 20 May 2011 13:54:57 +0200
> schrieb Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net>:
>
> > When recording soft synth just by
> > JACK, without the sound cards being involved, there's a loss for the
> > sound quality too!
>
> Wait a minute... could you explain that? You have a loss of quality compared to live playback of the soft synths (using JACK?) when playing back a recording taken from JACK? A recording that preserves 32 bit floating point sample format (heck, or 24 bit integer) and the sample rate, of course?

Yes and other people who can't hear it, do have it too. You can see it
by watching the waves spectral by Audacity. I did this regarding to a
zero-copy issue, that appears if a Jack client is connected directly to
itself, e.g. to do the mastering. 48 and 96 KHz, 32-bit wav 32-bit
float.

> I have to wonder what you did there to alter the data from the soft synth. I mean ... we're talking bit-exact copy here, aren't we? Can you present a test setup to observe that issue?

Any Linux install I know, e.g. 64 Studio 64-bit 3.0, 3.3, Suse 64-bit
11.2 and Edubuntu 32-bit Maverick + Ubuntu Studio meta packages and
others! If you can't here it, try to see it. If you don't have this
issue too, some people claim that they get 100% correct digital copies,
then something on my machine might cause a software issue, but I don't
think so.

Ralf

>
> Alrighty then,
>
> Thomas.


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Old 05-20-2011, 12:58 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Sound cards (Was: no sound

On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 14:36 +0200, Hartmut Noack wrote:
> Am 20.05.2011 13:54, schrieb Ralf Mardorf:
> > On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 12:48 +0200, Robert Klaar wrote:
> >> Any Rme card is good, although they're a bit expensive. Didn't have to
> >> do a thing to get my hdsp 9632 working.
> >
> > Hi Robert
> >
> > the main reason to switch the sound cards is the audio sound quality.
> > I'm able to pay around 700,- EUR / 800,- EUR (right now, regarding to my
> > "profession", I usually don't have any money). Btw. I noticed that not
> > only my sound cards do cause loss. When recording soft synth just by
> > JACK, without the sound cards being involved, there's a loss for the
> > sound quality too!
>
> No, there is none.
>
> Any software, that generates sounds from scratch like a softsynth wil
> produce exactly the same stream with any soun card. In fact such
> software will even generate the very same stream if no soundcard exists.
>
> And if you record such a stream with Jack you simply store that very
> stream bit by bit.

Wrong! There still could be rounding errors and dithering involved, a
digital copy very often isn't a digital copy . But ok, here I didn't
use dithering and I do use 32-bit float, but the result has a loss. I
dunno what do cause this loss.

For Jack there also is a zero-copy issue! You can't do wild connections
using Jack, but you need to take care about the order, when e.g.
connecting a client to itself.

>
> I assure you, you get the very same data in a recording via Jack if you
> play the same patch of the same synth on a work station with a RME
> Hammerfall or on a Laptop with a built-in HDA.
>
> The only level on wich a soundcard is related to a softsynth is the one
> on wich you actually hear the stream. And some synths can render
> differntly, if Jack is running at 96KHz instead of 48 or 44.1.
> But this has only remotely to do with the sound card let alone its quality.
>
> > And soft synth already do sound less good than real
> > old synth. Unfortunately those real old synth can break and there're no
> > microchips available to repair those synth, resp. they are hard to get,
> > very expensive and without warranty.
> >
> > My two TerraTec EWX 24/96 needs to be replaced,
>
> Tell me where you dump them, these 2 more stereo-dacs would be most
> welcome in my box ;-)
>
> All the trouble with the envy24-cards is related to (mis)configuration
> and to stupidities like automatically zeroing all channels caused by PA
> in most cases.
> As of now these problems can be solved by the user. They are *not*
> acceptable, they are bugs that need to be solved. But these bugs are not
> show-stoppers.
>
> > before I don't have got
> > the money anymore. FWIW S/PDIF doesn't work for my Ubuntu Studio with
> > the TerraTecs, hence I can't use "good analog IOs" that would be
> > available via S/PDIF. Btw. "good analog IOs" in this context does mean
> > consumer DAT Sony DTC-670 and Aiwa HD-S1, both are without any loss of
> > sound quality, when listening by my consumer equipment. At least good
> > consumer sound quality is what I expect of a "professional" sound card,
> > even if internal Linux there still would be loss caused by JACK or
> > caused by what issue ever.
>
> Jack does not cause any "loss in sound-quality" because Jack does not
> have any influence on the way, the pcm-stream is produced by the
> driver/sound-card.
>
> > Once Brauner borrowed me a Mac with a Motu
> > firewire device.
>
> The MOTUs are quite okayish and they sound exactly the same on any
> system that supports them.
>
> > the Mac's sound quality
>
> There is no such thing.
> No Mac-expert would endorse something like a special "Mac-related" sound
> quality. Do not mix that up with "sound performance" that has to do with
> latencies and stability but *not* with how good it sounds in the end.
>
> You know why? Because no professional would want to buy/use any
> computer/OS, that attempts to manipulate the sound produced from a
> pro-interface, be it for better or worse.
> OS/Driver etc *has* to be absolutely neutral in that, everything else is
> "super-bass-enancer" nonsense that one my expect in a cheap MP3-player
> but certainly *not* in a computer-system built for pros.
>
> > accomplished this requirement! No, I'm not using Brauner microphones for
> > my home studio , all I need is good consumer sound quality.
>
> All your experience is fired by the real quality of the DAC/ADC-hardware
> on the cards you have used and to some extend may be influenced by
> mixer-settings.
>
>
> no offence ment but RTFM please.
>
>
> best regs
> HZN
>
>
> > Two question about the RME card, I'll read more about sound cards later
> > and during the weekend and maybe I'll order a card next week.
> >
> > http://www.thomann.de/gb/search_dir.html?xsid=294c1645e0e16b761c35fa8f9ebce c51&sw=HDSP+9632&x=0&y=0
> >
> > At a max of 4 analog IOs? The unbalanced breakout cables are part of the
> > product content?
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > Ralf
> >
> >
>
>



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Old 05-20-2011, 01:00 PM
Hartmut Noack
 
Default Sound cards (Was: no sound

Am 20.05.2011 14:37, schrieb Ralf Mardorf:

On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 14:04 +0200, Thomas Orgis wrote:

Am Fri, 20 May 2011 13:54:57 +0200
schrieb Ralf Mardorf<ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net>:


When recording soft synth just by
JACK, without the sound cards being involved, there's a loss for the
sound quality too!


Wait a minute... could you explain that? You have a loss of quality compared to live playback of the soft synths (using JACK?) when playing back a recording taken from JACK? A recording that preserves 32 bit floating point sample format (heck, or 24 bit integer) and the sample rate, of course?


Yes and other people who can't hear it, do have it too.


I do not.


You can see it
by watching the waves spectral by Audacity. I did this regarding to a
zero-copy issue, that appears if a Jack client is connected directly to
itself, e.g. to do the mastering. 48 and 96 KHz, 32-bit wav 32-bit
float.


If a synth has dynamic filters it will never produce the exactly same
stream twice. But if you think about yourself you will find out, that
given you use the same settings for Jack on a HDA or a HDSP you will get
exactly the same quality.


Simply because a synth-software only delivers, what it renders to Jack
and Jack does *not* change anything in that rendered data. There is
simply not soundcard and not even a driver involved in the rendering
itself. DSPs only do the very same thing faster as cheap chips.


All difference in sound quality is related to DAC/ADC period




I have to wonder what you did there to alter the data from the soft synth. I mean ... we're talking bit-exact copy here, aren't we? Can you present a test setup to observe that issue?


Any Linux install I know, e.g. 64 Studio 64-bit 3.0, 3.3, Suse 64-bit
11.2 and Edubuntu 32-bit Maverick + Ubuntu Studio meta packages and
others! If you can't here it, try to see it. If you don't have this
issue too, some people claim that they get 100% correct digital copies,
then something on my machine might cause a software issue, but I don't
think so.

Ralf



Alrighty then,

Thomas.






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Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com
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Old 05-20-2011, 01:04 PM
Hartmut Noack
 
Default Sound cards (Was: no sound

Am 20.05.2011 14:58, schrieb Ralf Mardorf:

On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 14:36 +0200, Hartmut Noack wrote:

Am 20.05.2011 13:54, schrieb Ralf Mardorf:

On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 12:48 +0200, Robert Klaar wrote:

Any Rme card is good, although they're a bit expensive. Didn't have to
do a thing to get my hdsp 9632 working.


Hi Robert

the main reason to switch the sound cards is the audio sound quality.
I'm able to pay around 700,- EUR / 800,- EUR (right now, regarding to my
"profession", I usually don't have any money). Btw. I noticed that not
only my sound cards do cause loss. When recording soft synth just by
JACK, without the sound cards being involved, there's a loss for the
sound quality too!


No, there is none.

Any software, that generates sounds from scratch like a softsynth wil
produce exactly the same stream with any soun card. In fact such
software will even generate the very same stream if no soundcard exists.

And if you record such a stream with Jack you simply store that very
stream bit by bit.


Wrong! There still could be rounding errors and dithering involved


Yes, dithering makes a differnce -- if you use it.

And do you think, sound cards or drivers provoke specific rounding
errors in streams that are not even deliverd to them by Jack?



a
digital copy very often isn't a digital copy . But ok, here I didn't
use dithering and I do use 32-bit float, but the result has a loss. I
dunno what do cause this loss.

For Jack there also is a zero-copy issue! You can't do wild connections
using Jack, but you need to take care about the order, when e.g.
connecting a client to itself.



I assure you, you get the very same data in a recording via Jack if you
play the same patch of the same synth on a work station with a RME
Hammerfall or on a Laptop with a built-in HDA.

The only level on wich a soundcard is related to a softsynth is the one
on wich you actually hear the stream. And some synths can render
differntly, if Jack is running at 96KHz instead of 48 or 44.1.
But this has only remotely to do with the sound card let alone its quality.


And soft synth already do sound less good than real
old synth. Unfortunately those real old synth can break and there're no
microchips available to repair those synth, resp. they are hard to get,
very expensive and without warranty.

My two TerraTec EWX 24/96 needs to be replaced,


Tell me where you dump them, these 2 more stereo-dacs would be most
welcome in my box ;-)

All the trouble with the envy24-cards is related to (mis)configuration
and to stupidities like automatically zeroing all channels caused by PA
in most cases.
As of now these problems can be solved by the user. They are *not*
acceptable, they are bugs that need to be solved. But these bugs are not
show-stoppers.


before I don't have got
the money anymore. FWIW S/PDIF doesn't work for my Ubuntu Studio with
the TerraTecs, hence I can't use "good analog IOs" that would be
available via S/PDIF. Btw. "good analog IOs" in this context does mean
consumer DAT Sony DTC-670 and Aiwa HD-S1, both are without any loss of
sound quality, when listening by my consumer equipment. At least good
consumer sound quality is what I expect of a "professional" sound card,
even if internal Linux there still would be loss caused by JACK or
caused by what issue ever.


Jack does not cause any "loss in sound-quality" because Jack does not
have any influence on the way, the pcm-stream is produced by the
driver/sound-card.


Once Brauner borrowed me a Mac with a Motu
firewire device.


The MOTUs are quite okayish and they sound exactly the same on any
system that supports them.


the Mac's sound quality


There is no such thing.
No Mac-expert would endorse something like a special "Mac-related" sound
quality. Do not mix that up with "sound performance" that has to do with
latencies and stability but *not* with how good it sounds in the end.

You know why? Because no professional would want to buy/use any
computer/OS, that attempts to manipulate the sound produced from a
pro-interface, be it for better or worse.
OS/Driver etc *has* to be absolutely neutral in that, everything else is
"super-bass-enancer" nonsense that one my expect in a cheap MP3-player
but certainly *not* in a computer-system built for pros.


accomplished this requirement! No, I'm not using Brauner microphones for
my home studio , all I need is good consumer sound quality.


All your experience is fired by the real quality of the DAC/ADC-hardware
on the cards you have used and to some extend may be influenced by
mixer-settings.


no offence ment but RTFM please.


best regs
HZN



Two question about the RME card, I'll read more about sound cards later
and during the weekend and maybe I'll order a card next week.

http://www.thomann.de/gb/search_dir.html?xsid=294c1645e0e16b761c35fa8f9ebce c51&sw=HDSP+9632&x=0&y=0

At a max of 4 analog IOs? The unbalanced breakout cables are part of the
product content?

Cheers!

Ralf












--
Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list
Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
 
Old 05-20-2011, 01:15 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Sound cards (Was: no sound

On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 15:00 +0200, Hartmut Noack wrote:
> Am 20.05.2011 14:37, schrieb Ralf Mardorf:
> > On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 14:04 +0200, Thomas Orgis wrote:
> >> Am Fri, 20 May 2011 13:54:57 +0200
> >> schrieb Ralf Mardorf<ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net>:
> >>
> >>> When recording soft synth just by
> >>> JACK, without the sound cards being involved, there's a loss for the
> >>> sound quality too!
> >>
> >> Wait a minute... could you explain that? You have a loss of quality compared to live playback of the soft synths (using JACK?) when playing back a recording taken from JACK? A recording that preserves 32 bit floating point sample format (heck, or 24 bit integer) and the sample rate, of course?
> >
> > Yes and other people who can't hear it, do have it too.
>
> I do not.
>
> > You can see it
> > by watching the waves spectral by Audacity. I did this regarding to a
> > zero-copy issue, that appears if a Jack client is connected directly to
> > itself, e.g. to do the mastering. 48 and 96 KHz, 32-bit wav 32-bit
> > float.
>
> If a synth has dynamic filters it will never produce the exactly same
> stream twice. But if you think about yourself you will find out, that
> given you use the same settings for Jack on a HDA or a HDSP you will get
> exactly the same quality.

I'm an expert for audio engineering. I did work for Brauner microphones
development and others, hence I know a little bit about how to do
tests .
No dynamic filters are involved!

It's very simple, there's a natural sounding drum set as example drum
kit for Hydrogen. Play a rhythm, record this Rhythm and then record this
recording and compare both recordings. They should be equal, but they
aren't equal. I can here a !clear! loss and it's visible by spectral
waves.

>
> Simply because a synth-software only delivers, what it renders to Jack
> and Jack does *not* change anything in that rendered data. There is
> simply not soundcard and not even a driver involved in the rendering
> itself. DSPs only do the very same thing faster as cheap chips.
>
> All difference in sound quality is related to DAC/ADC period

No! Before any converter is involved, there at least could be rounding
errors, if you don't use 32-bit float all the times.

And by the way, the sound card will effect the original and the digital
copy in the same way, even with a bad sound card both recordings
shouldn't differ.

Hey, do a recording of a recording and then run the diff command to
compare them !

>
> >
> >> I have to wonder what you did there to alter the data from the soft synth. I mean ... we're talking bit-exact copy here, aren't we? Can you present a test setup to observe that issue?
> >
> > Any Linux install I know, e.g. 64 Studio 64-bit 3.0, 3.3, Suse 64-bit
> > 11.2 and Edubuntu 32-bit Maverick + Ubuntu Studio meta packages and
> > others! If you can't here it, try to see it. If you don't have this
> > issue too, some people claim that they get 100% correct digital copies,
> > then something on my machine might cause a software issue, but I don't
> > think so.
> >
> > Ralf
> >
> >>
> >> Alrighty then,
> >>
> >> Thomas.
> >
> >
>
>



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Old 05-20-2011, 01:33 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Sound cards (Was: no sound

On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 15:04 +0200, Hartmut Noack wrote:
> Am 20.05.2011 14:58, schrieb Ralf Mardorf:
> > On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 14:36 +0200, Hartmut Noack wrote:
> >> Am 20.05.2011 13:54, schrieb Ralf Mardorf:
> >>> On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 12:48 +0200, Robert Klaar wrote:
> >>>> Any Rme card is good, although they're a bit expensive. Didn't have to
> >>>> do a thing to get my hdsp 9632 working.
> >>>
> >>> Hi Robert
> >>>
> >>> the main reason to switch the sound cards is the audio sound quality.
> >>> I'm able to pay around 700,- EUR / 800,- EUR (right now, regarding to my
> >>> "profession", I usually don't have any money). Btw. I noticed that not
> >>> only my sound cards do cause loss. When recording soft synth just by
> >>> JACK, without the sound cards being involved, there's a loss for the
> >>> sound quality too!
> >>
> >> No, there is none.
> >>
> >> Any software, that generates sounds from scratch like a softsynth wil
> >> produce exactly the same stream with any soun card. In fact such
> >> software will even generate the very same stream if no soundcard exists.
> >>
> >> And if you record such a stream with Jack you simply store that very
> >> stream bit by bit.
> >
> > Wrong! There still could be rounding errors and dithering involved
>
> Yes, dithering makes a differnce -- if you use it.
>
> And do you think, sound cards or drivers provoke specific rounding
> errors in streams that are not even deliverd to them by Jack?

No! But I suspect a bug for Jack and btw. there already was a rounding
bug that was fixed, perhaps years ago.

The "you can't connect every client with every client, regarding to a
zero-copy issue" still was a topic some days ago on Jack devel mailing
list, but I didn't follow the thread, just noticed it randomly.

I won't lead on this discussion about a loss or no loss. When I noticed
sync issues, MIDI jitter and loss for audio before, most from the
community vetoed, then after a while the bugs I heard became a topic and
bug-fixes too.

I've got a good reputation regarding to professional audio engineering
and a bad name by the Linux community. I don't care about this.

A lot of people claimed that they don't have sync issues, but the coders
said that e.g. there was a sync issue for Hydrogen, when using Jack
transport, btw. I never used Hydrogen's step sequencer myself, but
noticed similar issues, for other usages. Very often people simply
aren't able to hear KNOWN issues.

Talking, resp. writing about some bugs is useless. I need to live with
those issues.

Ralf

>
> > a
> > digital copy very often isn't a digital copy . But ok, here I didn't
> > use dithering and I do use 32-bit float, but the result has a loss. I
> > dunno what do cause this loss.
> >
> > For Jack there also is a zero-copy issue! You can't do wild connections
> > using Jack, but you need to take care about the order, when e.g.
> > connecting a client to itself.
> >
> >>
> >> I assure you, you get the very same data in a recording via Jack if you
> >> play the same patch of the same synth on a work station with a RME
> >> Hammerfall or on a Laptop with a built-in HDA.
> >>
> >> The only level on wich a soundcard is related to a softsynth is the one
> >> on wich you actually hear the stream. And some synths can render
> >> differntly, if Jack is running at 96KHz instead of 48 or 44.1.
> >> But this has only remotely to do with the sound card let alone its quality.
> >>
> >>> And soft synth already do sound less good than real
> >>> old synth. Unfortunately those real old synth can break and there're no
> >>> microchips available to repair those synth, resp. they are hard to get,
> >>> very expensive and without warranty.
> >>>
> >>> My two TerraTec EWX 24/96 needs to be replaced,
> >>
> >> Tell me where you dump them, these 2 more stereo-dacs would be most
> >> welcome in my box ;-)
> >>
> >> All the trouble with the envy24-cards is related to (mis)configuration
> >> and to stupidities like automatically zeroing all channels caused by PA
> >> in most cases.
> >> As of now these problems can be solved by the user. They are *not*
> >> acceptable, they are bugs that need to be solved. But these bugs are not
> >> show-stoppers.
> >>
> >>> before I don't have got
> >>> the money anymore. FWIW S/PDIF doesn't work for my Ubuntu Studio with
> >>> the TerraTecs, hence I can't use "good analog IOs" that would be
> >>> available via S/PDIF. Btw. "good analog IOs" in this context does mean
> >>> consumer DAT Sony DTC-670 and Aiwa HD-S1, both are without any loss of
> >>> sound quality, when listening by my consumer equipment. At least good
> >>> consumer sound quality is what I expect of a "professional" sound card,
> >>> even if internal Linux there still would be loss caused by JACK or
> >>> caused by what issue ever.
> >>
> >> Jack does not cause any "loss in sound-quality" because Jack does not
> >> have any influence on the way, the pcm-stream is produced by the
> >> driver/sound-card.
> >>
> >>> Once Brauner borrowed me a Mac with a Motu
> >>> firewire device.
> >>
> >> The MOTUs are quite okayish and they sound exactly the same on any
> >> system that supports them.
> >>
> >>> the Mac's sound quality
> >>
> >> There is no such thing.
> >> No Mac-expert would endorse something like a special "Mac-related" sound
> >> quality. Do not mix that up with "sound performance" that has to do with
> >> latencies and stability but *not* with how good it sounds in the end.
> >>
> >> You know why? Because no professional would want to buy/use any
> >> computer/OS, that attempts to manipulate the sound produced from a
> >> pro-interface, be it for better or worse.
> >> OS/Driver etc *has* to be absolutely neutral in that, everything else is
> >> "super-bass-enancer" nonsense that one my expect in a cheap MP3-player
> >> but certainly *not* in a computer-system built for pros.
> >>
> >>> accomplished this requirement! No, I'm not using Brauner microphones for
> >>> my home studio , all I need is good consumer sound quality.
> >>
> >> All your experience is fired by the real quality of the DAC/ADC-hardware
> >> on the cards you have used and to some extend may be influenced by
> >> mixer-settings.
> >>
> >>
> >> no offence ment but RTFM please.
> >>
> >>
> >> best regs
> >> HZN
> >>
> >>
> >>> Two question about the RME card, I'll read more about sound cards later
> >>> and during the weekend and maybe I'll order a card next week.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.thomann.de/gb/search_dir.html?xsid=294c1645e0e16b761c35fa8f9ebce c51&sw=HDSP+9632&x=0&y=0
> >>>
> >>> At a max of 4 analog IOs? The unbalanced breakout cables are part of the
> >>> product content?
> >>>
> >>> Cheers!
> >>>
> >>> Ralf
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>



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Old 05-20-2011, 02:53 PM
Hartmut Noack
 
Default Sound cards (Was: no sound

Am 20.05.2011 15:15, schrieb Ralf Mardorf:

On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 15:00 +0200, Hartmut Noack wrote:

Am 20.05.2011 14:37, schrieb Ralf Mardorf:

On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 14:04 +0200, Thomas Orgis wrote:

Am Fri, 20 May 2011 13:54:57 +0200
schrieb Ralf Mardorf<ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net>:


When recording soft synth just by
JACK, without the sound cards being involved, there's a loss for the
sound quality too!


Wait a minute... could you explain that? You have a loss of quality compared to live playback of the soft synths (using JACK?) when playing back a recording taken from JACK? A recording that preserves 32 bit floating point sample format (heck, or 24 bit integer) and the sample rate, of course?


Yes and other people who can't hear it, do have it too.


I do not.


You can see it
by watching the waves spectral by Audacity. I did this regarding to a
zero-copy issue, that appears if a Jack client is connected directly to
itself, e.g. to do the mastering. 48 and 96 KHz, 32-bit wav 32-bit
float.


If a synth has dynamic filters it will never produce the exactly same
stream twice. But if you think about yourself you will find out, that
given you use the same settings for Jack on a HDA or a HDSP you will get
exactly the same quality.


I'm an expert for audio engineering. I did work for Brauner microphones
development and others, hence I know a little bit about how to do
tests .
No dynamic filters are involved!

It's very simple, there's a natural sounding drum set as example drum
kit for Hydrogen. Play a rhythm, record this Rhythm and then record this
recording and compare both recordings. They should be equal, but they
aren't equal. I can here a !clear! loss and it's visible by spectral
waves.



Simply because a synth-software only delivers, what it renders to Jack
and Jack does *not* change anything in that rendered data. There is
simply not soundcard and not even a driver involved in the rendering
itself. DSPs only do the very same thing faster as cheap chips.

All difference in sound quality is related to DAC/ADC period


No! Before any converter is involved, there at least could be rounding
errors, if you don't use 32-bit float all the times.


And why should I not use 32bit float all the time?

Of course there are differences, if format-conversion is involved. But
you did not mention such conversions, you only talked about sound cards
causing mysterious differences when Jack delivers a stream from a
synth-application directly to a recorder.


The normal, sane setup fpr recording a synth directly with Jack is, that
the synth, Jack and the recorder all run with the same samplerate and
32bit float or at least all 3 with 16bit Int. And if that is set up like
this, there is zero influence of the soundcard on the recording.




And by the way, the sound card will effect the original and the digital
copy in the same way, even with a bad sound card both recordings
shouldn't differ.

Hey, do a recording of a recording


You mean, like recording something from ams via jack then play the
wav-file with mhw and record this with ardour. Then compare the two
recorded streams?


If in such a process recording A would differ from recording B then MHW
or Ardour *could* cause such a difference. Jack itself could only be
charged, if resampling and/or dithering would be involved. That is: if
the synth-engine would work with 44.1Hz while Jack runs with 48Hz. And
you will not want to set up a synth like this.


But you said, that there would be a difference between a 1st-level
recording from a synth via Jack with sound card A and another recording
of the same synth with soundcard B.


And that is not the case.


and then run the diff command to
compare them !






I have to wonder what you did there to alter the data from the soft synth.


Format conversion?
Some synths (like ZynaddSubFX) can be configured to produce streams in a
certain format (such as 44.1 Hz / 16bit Int) and still run with Jack
that runs with different settings.
Every body sets Zynadd to run with the same SR as Jack and Zynadd
recommends that if started from the command line.




I mean ... we're talking bit-exact copy here, aren't we? Can you present a test setup to observe that issue?

Any Linux install I know, e.g. 64 Studio 64-bit 3.0, 3.3, Suse 64-bit
11.2 and Edubuntu 32-bit Maverick + Ubuntu Studio meta packages and
others! If you can't here it, try to see it. If you don't have this
issue too, some people claim that they get 100% correct digital copies,
then something on my machine might cause a software issue, but I don't
think so.

Ralf



Alrighty then,

Thomas.













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Old 05-20-2011, 02:54 PM
Mike Holstein
 
Default Sound cards (Was: no sound

Ralph,
the sound card *cant* have anything to do with the audio that is generated by software synths. this is not a grey area. and expert such as yourself might want to look at the source code for the software in question, and see what about the hardware is being utilized for rendering the audio. heres a test scenario: take all the sound devices out of the machine (or disable them). take a MIDI file and*render*it using JACK utilizing the 'dummy' driver. you can render the same file with a sound card in use, and share both of those here if you would like. *i am not talking about monitoring those sounds, OR recording them analog from the main outs of the sound card. by render, im thinking recording in ardour and exporting or exporting from something else.



--
MH
http://opensourcemusician.libsyn.com/http://wnclug.ourproject.org/



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