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Old 02-09-2008, 09:58 PM
"Cory K."
 
Default Ogg/MP3 encoding at very high bitrates

Joseph Wakeling wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I listen to a lot of classical and otherwise complex music, so I'm
> concerned that when I rip CDs I get a very high-quality result.
>
> By default I'd therefore use FLAC but I'm curious about the very high
> quality level (say -q 9 or -q 10, that is, round about 300+ kB/s) ogg
> and MP3 encoding and how it compares. Partly just theoretical curiosity
> about the algorithms and how they work at different levels of
> compression (what data does it remove at these high bitrates?), partly
> an "is it worth it" question about lossless compared to high-bitrate
> compared to not-so-high bitrate encoding.
>
> So, could someone comment?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> -- Joe

The higher bitrate you use you obviously get closer to lossless. So it
really becomes a question of acceptable file-size and HW support.

At high bitrates, you'll hear no difference between _any_ codecs. I've
done studio testing to the effect. Most tests you'll find online test
low bitrates also. That's where you see the difference and Vorbis
usually does very well here.

So what is the target HW you use for playback? PMP (iPod) ? HTPS?

-Cory m/

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Old 02-09-2008, 10:55 PM
 
Default Ogg/MP3 encoding at very high bitrates

On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:58:05 -0500
"Cory K." <coryisatm@nc.rr.com> wrote:

> Joseph Wakeling wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I listen to a lot of classical and otherwise complex music, so I'm
> > concerned that when I rip CDs I get a very high-quality result.
> >
> > By default I'd therefore use FLAC but I'm curious about the very
> > high quality level (say -q 9 or -q 10, that is, round about 300+
> > kB/s) ogg and MP3 encoding and how it compares. Partly just
> > theoretical curiosity about the algorithms and how they work at
> > different levels of compression (what data does it remove at these
> > high bitrates?), partly an "is it worth it" question about lossless
> > compared to high-bitrate compared to not-so-high bitrate encoding.
> >
> > So, could someone comment?
> >
> > Many thanks,
> >
> > -- Joe
>
> The higher bitrate you use you obviously get closer to lossless. So it
> really becomes a question of acceptable file-size and HW support.
>
> At high bitrates, you'll hear no difference between _any_ codecs. I've
> done studio testing to the effect. Most tests you'll find online test
> low bitrates also. That's where you see the difference and Vorbis
> usually does very well here.
>
> So what is the target HW you use for playback? PMP (iPod) ? HTPS?
>
> -Cory m/

If you are interested in listening tests I recommend hydrogenaudio.org.
The reason for me encoding in a lossless format is not so much weather
I can hear the difference but about having the option to transcode
however I like and having 'the original' in a digitised form.

If you want to test lossless files, read up on blind listening tests,
start your test at some standard setting and work from there to see
what's transparent or acceptable to you.

Best Regards,
Philipp

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Old 02-09-2008, 11:01 PM
"Cory K."
 
Default Ogg/MP3 encoding at very high bitrates

hollunder@gmx.at wrote:
> If you are interested in listening tests I recommend hydrogenaudio.org.
>

Great advice there. (I forgot)

> The reason for me encoding in a lossless format is not so much weather
> I can hear the difference but about having the option to transcode
> however I like and having 'the original' in a digitised form.
>

Same here. I took my 600+ CD collection to FLAC and have scripts to
convert to any format.


-Cory m/

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Old 02-09-2008, 11:40 PM
Joseph Wakeling
 
Default Ogg/MP3 encoding at very high bitrates

Cory K. wrote:
> The higher bitrate you use you obviously get closer to lossless. So it
> really becomes a question of acceptable file-size and HW support.
>
> At high bitrates, you'll hear no difference between _any_ codecs. I've
> done studio testing to the effect. Most tests you'll find online test
> low bitrates also. That's where you see the difference and Vorbis
> usually does very well here.
>
> So what is the target HW you use for playback? PMP (iPod) ? HTPS?

Thanks for the advice. The target is my laptop (or other computer)
using Amarok, Audacious or JuK, with a (fairly nice) pair of headphones
or speakers. I don't do MP3 players and so on, I hate tiny headphones. :-)

hollunder@gmx.at wrote:
> If you are interested in listening tests I recommend hydrogenaudio.org.
> The reason for me encoding in a lossless format is not so much weather
> I can hear the difference but about having the option to transcode
> however I like and having 'the original' in a digitised form.
>
> If you want to test lossless files, read up on blind listening tests,
> start your test at some standard setting and work from there to see
> what's transparent or acceptable to you.

I think this is really why I'm inclined to go for FLAC too. At present
disk space is an issue so I discriminate primarily on the basis of 'Do I
really really care about this album right now or not?' Probably in the
long run I will do as Cory has done and back up my whole CD collection
in FLAC (all it needs is time plus a big enough external hard disk).

Thanks again to both of you for the suggestions and info.


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Old 02-09-2008, 11:52 PM
"Cory K."
 
Default Ogg/MP3 encoding at very high bitrates

Joseph Wakeling wrote:
> Probably in the long run I will do as Cory has done and back up my whole CD collection
> in FLAC (all it needs is time plus a big enough external hard disk).

Just to give you a idea of size, 650 some odd CDs encoded at "--best"
take up 212GB of harddrive space for me.

-Cory m/

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Old 02-10-2008, 06:22 AM
thomas fisher
 
Default Ogg/MP3 encoding at very high bitrates

On Saturday 09 February 2008 17:52:08 Cory K. wrote:
> Joseph Wakeling wrote:
> > Probably in the long run I will do as Cory has done and back up my whole
> > CD collection in FLAC (all it needs is time plus a big enough external
> > hard disk).
>
> Just to give you a idea of size, 650 some odd CDs encoded at "--best"
> take up 212GB of harddrive space for me.
>
> -Cory m/

Cory did you give the ogg format a consideration compared to flac? And if so
what were the pro & cons?
Thanks
Tom


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Old 02-10-2008, 01:19 PM
"Cory K."
 
Default Ogg/MP3 encoding at very high bitrates

thomas fisher wrote:
> On Saturday 09 February 2008 17:52:08 Cory K. wrote:
>
>> Joseph Wakeling wrote:
>>
>>> Probably in the long run I will do as Cory has done and back up my whole
>>> CD collection in FLAC (all it needs is time plus a big enough external
>>> hard disk).
>>>
>> Just to give you a idea of size, 650 some odd CDs encoded at "--best"
>> take up 212GB of harddrive space for me.
>>
>> -Cory m/
>>
>
> Cory did you give the ogg format a consideration compared to flac? And if so
> what were the pro & cons?
> Thanks
> Tom
>

I had considered ogg/vorbis but what it came down to for me was this:

* Hard drive space wasn't an issue.
* My devices supported FLAC and Vorbis. (iRiver player with RockBox.
Cowon makes excellent players that support open formats also)
* I wanted to be able to go to other formats using a lossless
source. FLAC fit this perfectly.

You might find this interesting. Lossless comparison chart:
http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Lossless_comparison

I had considered Wavpack, which is also an excellent format, but it has
limited HW support and I haven't really seen it being used for anything
but personal use. ie: Used as a distribution format I mean. For-pay or
otherwise.

-Cory m/

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