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Old 06-09-2010, 06:24 AM
Alessio Igor Bogani
 
Default Ubuntu Studio Project Lead

Hi Brian,

2010/6/8 Brian David <beejunk@gmail.com>:
[..]
> On a final note, a long running issue for me is how often a quality rt
> kernel is left out of the releases.* On my system, at least, the RT kernel
> is the only one that gives good enough performance.* The vanilla and preempt
> kernels produce far too many x-runs.* I seem to have no problems with the
> 2.6.31 RT kernel, but it would be awfully nice to have a 32 version.

Could you evaluate and compare those results with -lowlatency kernel
available on https://launchpad.net/~abogani/+archive/ppa/+packages,
please?

Thank you very much.

Ciao,
Alessio

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Old 06-09-2010, 05:30 PM
Scott Lavender
 
Default Ubuntu Studio Project Lead

On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Hartmut Noack <zettberlin@linuxuse.de> wrote:

<snip>



BUT to gain the trust of the users PA must become much more

user-configurable then before. The first step should be a "disable

PA"-switch in a decent, accessible GUI (could be a mixer). This should

be possible *without* removing PA alltogether and PA should be really

absolute passive if this switch is flicked by the user.

Daniel Chen mentioned in the developer meeting that someone might be working on a one-click JACK activation from the sound notifier applet (if i remember correctly).* Presumably this would* disable Pulse Audio.





That is very good news :-)

Can we have the all-new CALF-stuff from SVN?


I'll look into it.
*Guitarix is very important and it makes astounding progress at the


moment. Brummer and freinds made this little crushing amp a veritable

powerstack usable for serious studio-use with full MIDI-learn, built-in

convolution-engine and many other pro-grade features.

And i have to stress this again: the new CALF-Plugins that are in the

works now will be a revolution in the world of native plugins for Linux.

Some are entirely new like the sidechain-compressor, others replace

bit-rotten LADSPA-plugins that do not work anymore like the powerfull

deesser. And most of them work allready:



http://lapoc.de/img/calf-new10.png



best regs

HZN/Berlin

It looks like there is already a Debian bug report for Guitarix and I mentioned it to quadrispro about it this morning on IRC.* He seems quite interested in it and falktx offered his PPA version as well to start.* So we might be seeing this soon in Ubuntu synced from Debian.


ScottL

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Old 06-09-2010, 05:40 PM
Scott Lavender
 
Default Ubuntu Studio Project Lead

On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 3:32 PM, laurent.bellegarde <laurent.bellegarde@free.fr> wrote:

Hi Scott.



Well, it's a good program.



Few things, as i've done an official conference about UBS at Paris

Ubuntu Party.



- Many people ask for a viewable boot ! Many beleive that there was a

bug during the boot !

I'm not sure what you mean by 'viewable boot'.* Do you mean the progress bar?

On my system the progress bar is only visible for three to four seconds before the GDM screen appears and the progress bar only fills the first U and part of the N!* I am curious if other systems are similar.* The Plymouth theme was added very, very late during last cycle so it might require some tweaking although I am unsure how much adjusting is possible.


You mentioned a video of your event before.* Is it available so I can see what you are describing?
*


- Many people ask about software distribution, for many, UBS is too

music edition designed, and not enough image/Video edition completed.



A question



is there a plan to complete Lucid UBS LTS, or only improving the next

UBS release ?

Personally I would like Lucid to be an LTS version.* I think it is highly important to have a stable, relatively bug free release available.

This was discussed at the last developer meeting (and probably to be discusses at the next one) without a definitive resolution.* However, the answer will be determined by what we feel we can properly support.



For producing multimedia, powerfull, stable and complete release is

absolutly necessary, so lucid need large complete under UBS release.



Thanks for the lead,



Bye,

Laurent

lprod.org

ScottL


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Old 06-09-2010, 05:48 PM
Scott Lavender
 
Default Ubuntu Studio Project Lead

On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Jose H. <joseche@gmail.com> wrote:

I have the crazy idea that Ubuntu Studio should be user oriented.
If that was the case, ubuntu studio needs to solve two really big issues:** 1) complexity: PA vs Jack => ubuntu studio vs the user, Windows and Mac will win

I agree and we are working toward this goal with better integration between JACK and Pulse Audio.

This is arguably the biggest user complaint and therefore we are attempting to address it.

*

** 2) stability: jacks crashes, timidity crashes, etc.....
I personally suffer very, very little from any crashes.* If you are experiencing crashes, and I cannot stress this enough, then please file a bug report about it!* This is exceptionally important for all users!


Problems cannot be fixed unless we are aware of them.* And emails to the users list is not enough.

The information contained in bug reports is crucial to determining the cause and the solution.* Please file bug reports.


Sorry, dead horse = beaten.
*
Shouldn't JACK+Timidity start with init.d and be stable, working without issues with PA ?

I'm not sure JACK should start by default as many people use their boxes for other activities than recording music.* However, I do agree that it should work without issues with Pulse Audio.
*

My Two cents.
*
--
Nuestra recompensa se encuentra en el
esfuerzo y no en el resultado. Un esfuerzo
total es una victoria completa.
* * * * * * * * * * * --Gandhi


*ScottL

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Old 06-09-2010, 07:46 PM
Kenneth Koym
 
Default Ubuntu Studio Project Lead

Brian: if it makes a difference, I run Kubuntu Studio 10.04 64 amd on my PC; I've* reported a xorg bug [to ubuntu.com/X/Reporting] on an upgrade built on a -lowlatency kernel and cannot find work arounds that give me sound, Jack Control, Skype or open office in a correct on screen appearance. *


Let's keep nudging for down days to go away.
Kenneth

On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 1:24 AM, Alessio Igor Bogani <abogani@ubuntu.com> wrote:

Hi Brian,



2010/6/8 Brian David <beejunk@gmail.com>:

[..]

> On a final note, a long running issue for me is how often a quality rt

> kernel is left out of the releases.* On my system, at least, the RT kernel

> is the only one that gives good enough performance.* The vanilla and preempt

> kernels produce far too many x-runs.* I seem to have no problems with the

> 2.6.31 RT kernel, but it would be awfully nice to have a 32 version.



Could you evaluate and compare those results with -lowlatency kernel

available on https://launchpad.net/~abogani/+archive/ppa/+packages,

please?



Thank you very much.



Ciao,

Alessio



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Old 06-09-2010, 08:48 PM
Scott Lavender
 
Default Ubuntu Studio Project Lead

On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 11:48 PM, Brian David <beejunk@gmail.com> wrote:


I'm going to play devil's advocate here, and suggest that Ubuntu Studio should not be user oriented.* At least, not in the sense that a main priority would be to make things as simple as possible.* It seems to me that a lot of problems have resulted from the active marketing of Ubuntu Studio as easy to use.



At this point, I've accepted that Linux audio is never going to be easy.* I've also accepted that this is a good thing, because the payoff is that the software is of higher quality and greater versatility.* My suggestion is that Ubuntu Studio should brand itself as a serious audio production system, one the provides the highest quality tools out there, but that requires patience and experience to utilize.* Not the easiest sell, but I'd say closer to reality.


Much discussion has occurred lately about what is Ubuntu Studio's audience.* To be honest, we really don't have too many clues.* I think we need to know more about our current and their needs so that we can better address them.


However, I wouldn't try to sell Ubuntu Studio as "professional audio" at this point.* JACK and Pulse Audio integration, among other things, is an argument to this point.* I'm not saying the potential isn't there, because I believe it is, but it would require additional work.*

*Having said that, I think there are a few things that could be done to make Ubuntu Studio more user friendly.* The most obvious would be to make sure that the user is automatically put in the 'audio' and 'video' groups, and that firewire access is available out of the box without needing to mess with Ubuntu Studio Controls.* This should allow JACK to start right away for most users.

If you install Ubuntu Studio from the DVD, a fresh install as it has been mentioned, the use is part of the audio group.* However, I believe this is probably going to change for -rt capabilities.

My understanding is that the current user, the one logged in and behind the keyboard, is the active user and the active user will have rights to -rt audio.* So, users will not need to be explicitly included in the @audio group.* Of course, this is under development and subject to my limited understanding and development change.


Adding users to the @video group and enabling raw1394 might pose security issues.* I'm not saying this is not a possibility, but rather it needs to be discusses and explored.
*
However, above all else, what Ubuntu Studio needs is much much much better documentation and tutorials.

This is something near and dear to me and is what got me involved with the Ubuntu Studio developers and I cannot agree more.* However, the developer team is extremely limited both quantitatively and qualitatively, therefore any help from the user base would be most appreciated.


Another item I cannot stress to often or too much; there are many ways that users can assist Ubuntu Studio without developer knowledge and this includes testing, bug reports, and documentation.

Any knowledgeable user is encouraged to fix typos or outdated material and even create new pages on the wikis.* Any user with a launchpad account can do this!



On a final note, a long running issue for me is how often a quality rt kernel is left out of the releases.* On my system, at least, the RT kernel is the only one that gives good enough performance.* The vanilla and preempt kernels produce far too many x-runs.* I seem to have no problems with the 2.6.31 RT kernel, but it would be awfully nice to have a 32 version.


--
-Brian David
I see Alessio has already replied concerning the kernel so I will only supplement his comments.* More information about kernels can be found at:* https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/RealTimeKernel


From least to greatest real time needs, please try:* -generic -> -preempt -> -lowlatency -> -rt kernel

My understanding is that the -rt kernel depends on Igno Molnar's patch, therefore we cannot guarantee it's availability for every kernel.* However, the other flavors do not rely on his patch, but rather are available by simply changing compile flags.


ScottL




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Old 06-10-2010, 08:42 PM
Brian David
 
Default Ubuntu Studio Project Lead

On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 3:48 PM, Scott Lavender <scottalavender@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 11:48 PM, Brian David <beejunk@gmail.com> wrote:



I'm going to play devil's advocate here, and suggest that Ubuntu Studio should not be user oriented.* At least, not in the sense that a main priority would be to make things as simple as possible.* It seems to me that a lot of problems have resulted from the active marketing of Ubuntu Studio as easy to use.




At this point, I've accepted that Linux audio is never going to be easy.* I've also accepted that this is a good thing, because the payoff is that the software is of higher quality and greater versatility.* My suggestion is that Ubuntu Studio should brand itself as a serious audio production system, one the provides the highest quality tools out there, but that requires patience and experience to utilize.* Not the easiest sell, but I'd say closer to reality.



Much discussion has occurred lately about what is Ubuntu Studio's audience.* To be honest, we really don't have too many clues.* I think we need to know more about our current and their needs so that we can better address them.



However, I wouldn't try to sell Ubuntu Studio as "professional audio" at this point.* JACK and Pulse Audio integration, among other things, is an argument to this point.* I'm not saying the potential isn't there, because I believe it is, but it would require additional work.*


*
You are right, it is probably not a good idea to start calling Ubuntu Studio 'pro' just yet.* I suppose the main thrust of what I'm saying is that we should be up front about the fact that Ubuntu Studio is a complex and advanced system, but point out how this is good thing by explaining the benefits you gain if you're willing to learn.* People who are interested in Ubuntu Studio should be able to have clear expectations about what they are getting into.


I will try out those kernels as soon as possible, Alessio.* Thanks for the help.
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Old 06-11-2010, 01:13 AM
"Jose H."
 
Default Ubuntu Studio Project Lead

You are right, it is probably not a good idea to start calling Ubuntu Studio 'pro' just yet.* I suppose the main thrust of what I'm saying is that we should be up front about the fact that Ubuntu Studio is a complex and advanced system, but point out how this is good thing by explaining the benefits you gain if you're willing to learn.* People who are interested in

To be willing to learn is something you can count on, if you want to produce music you are used to be willing to learn we things, but to be willing to fix bugs and tweak files and permissions is something completely different.

It is true that the focus is not usability, but that same factor is always a*sine qua non factor for anything you aspire to call "pro" or "high quality", so it should be faced as soon as possible imho.

* Ubuntu Studio should be able to have clear expectations about what they are getting into.




The expectations are not clear right now, since the user doesn't know he will face an known (commonly big) amount of issues to get it working. That is exactly what makes users talk so bad about open source for audio production in forums.

PD: Yes you can make great software with terrible UI (user experience as a general concept), but is your software intended for machines or only software experts ?



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Old 06-11-2010, 04:57 AM
Brian David
 
Default Ubuntu Studio Project Lead

On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 1:24 AM, Alessio Igor Bogani <abogani@ubuntu.com> wrote:

Hi Brian,



2010/6/8 Brian David <beejunk@gmail.com>:

[..]

> On a final note, a long running issue for me is how often a quality rt

> kernel is left out of the releases.* On my system, at least, the RT kernel

> is the only one that gives good enough performance.* The vanilla and preempt

> kernels produce far too many x-runs.* I seem to have no problems with the

> 2.6.31 RT kernel, but it would be awfully nice to have a 32 version.



Could you evaluate and compare those results with -lowlatency kernel

available on https://launchpad.net/~abogani/+archive/ppa/+packages,

please?



Thank you very much.



Ciao,

Alessio



I spent a bit of time with the kernels in your PPA, with these JACK settings:* 48khz sample rate, 512 frame, 3 buffers, 32 msec latency.* All in all, fairly light settings.* Also, here's a quick rundown of my hardware, if it's helpful:


MacBook, first generation
Intel core2duo 2.0 ghz processor (not capable of running 64bit)
2 GB RAM
PreSonus Firepod firewire audio interface

With the -lowlatency kernel, performance was moderate.* Running Hyrdrogen through a few JACKRack effects for a little while didn't produce any x-runs (except on the program start-up, which is probably to be expected.)* However, I opened some fairly complicated mixing sessions in Ardour, which pushed the DSP to around 40%, and I started getting x-runx every minute or so.* This is better than the vanilla kernel, but not quite good enough for my needs.


I tried out the -realtime kernel, and it worked like a charm.* Ran a very complicated Ardour session (upwards of 80% DSP) and had not a single x-run after 30 minutes.

I do notice that the kernel page Scott referenced did say to only use the -realtime kernel if the other ones do not work.* Is there something I should know about this kernel if I plan to use it extensively?* As in, it's not going to kill my computer or anything, right?


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Old 06-11-2010, 07:32 AM
"laurent.bellegarde"
 
Default Ubuntu Studio Project Lead

Hi Scott and* all,



Le 09/06/2010 19:40, Scott Lavender a écrit*:


On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 3:32 PM,
laurent.bellegarde <laurent.bellegarde@free.fr>
wrote:

Hi
Scott.



Well, it's a good program.



Few things, as i've done an official conference about UBS at Paris

Ubuntu Party.



- Many people ask for a viewable boot ! Many beleive that there was a

bug during the boot !




I'm not sure what you mean by 'viewable boot'.* Do you mean the
progress bar?



On my system the progress bar is only visible for three to four seconds
before the GDM screen appears and the progress bar only fills the first
U and part of the N!* I am curious if other systems are similar.* The
Plymouth theme was added very, very late during last cycle so it might
require some tweaking although I am unsure how much adjusting is
possible.






Yes, when i'm booting under generic kernel that's doing the same thing
as you, on different laptop with intel, or ati graphics cards. it's not
very beautifull. More difficult is the boot under RT-kernel, there is
no graphical boot, only a blank screen, and few seconds before having
GDM, severals understanding command lines on the left part of the
screen, which is more than awfull :-/



You mentioned a video of your event before.* Is it available so I can
see what you are describing?



As soon it's available online, i'll tell the list.



Laurent



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