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Old 05-31-2010, 01:17 AM
"Jose H."
 
Default What's wrong with jack ?

Hi all,

Jack is used for everything, it just seems to be the standard for anything related to audio in linux, BUT it doesn't work out of the box in Ubuntu Studio, which for me seems like a huge contradiction, you have everything that works with jack, but jack doesn't work :S


Am I supposed to "rm /usr/bin/pulseaudio" to make jack work ?, or it is just that Ubuntu Studio is not ready to be used for music production in a real sense ? = it is just for testing and experimenting


Thanks.

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Old 05-31-2010, 01:37 AM
 
Default What's wrong with jack ?

Jose, to continue the analogy... Like most things that just work out of the box, there is some assembly required.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jose H." <joseche@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 19:17:44
To: <ubuntu-studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com>
Subject: What's wrong with jack ?

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Old 05-31-2010, 12:40 PM
Pablo Fernandez
 
Default What's wrong with jack ?

On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 3:17 AM, Jose H. <joseche@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all,

Jack is used for everything, it just seems to be the standard for anything related to audio in linux, BUT it doesn't work out of the box in Ubuntu Studio, which for me seems like a huge contradiction, you have everything that works with jack, but jack doesn't work :S




I agree that jack should work out of the box in ubuntustudio but I don't agree that pulseaudio should not be the default audio system.


In many cases, jack does not suit users well but pulseaudio is fine.

As I see it, Jack is a must* for audio production, but not for audio in
general. For example, if you have a surround system like in a home
cinema, pulseaudio is the audio system that just works. Not jack.




Am I supposed to "rm /usr/bin/pulseaudio" to make jack work ?, or it is just that Ubuntu Studio is not ready to be used for music production in a real sense ? = it is just for testing and experimenting


US is almost there. Imho, US should add the first user to the audio group automatically so that jackd starts out of the box from qjackctl. jackd post inst script (in lucid) gives the users in the audio group the privileges that jackd needs.*


For the rest, qjackctl launches pasuspender so pulseaudio is (almost) out of the way.

Afaik, a cleaner approach than pasuspender or the rm you suggest in getting rid of pulseaudio is the following:

qjackctl --> Options tab, execute script on startup:

pulseaudio -k

(this kills pulseaudio) (artsshell sounds like jurasic)
*
However, pulseaudio will respawn automatically if you don't do the following:

$ sudo edit /etc/pulse/client.conf

Change the line:

; autospawn = yes
to:
autospawn = no

If you wish to start pulseaudio, once the jack session is finished:

$ pulseaudio --start

BTW, pavucontrol seems better to me than gnome sound control, both being pulseaudio control interfaces.


Cheers! Pablo

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Old 05-31-2010, 03:27 PM
Ricardo Lameiro
 
Default What's wrong with jack ?

well, can you explain what do you mean with jack doesnt work out of the box? i installed ubuntu studio setup jack and it worked. when i said setup jack, i speak on setting the latency/frames/buffers/periods. and it worked on the generic kernel with rt flag on jack, so maybe it doesnt work for you, but form works.


2010/5/31 Pablo Fernandez <pablo.fbus@gmail.com>



On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 3:17 AM, Jose H. <joseche@gmail.com> wrote:


Hi all,

Jack is used for everything, it just seems to be the standard for anything related to audio in linux, BUT it doesn't work out of the box in Ubuntu Studio, which for me seems like a huge contradiction, you have everything that works with jack, but jack doesn't work :S





I agree that jack should work out of the box in ubuntustudio but I don't agree that pulseaudio should not be the default audio system.


In many cases, jack does not suit users well but pulseaudio is fine.

As I see it, Jack is a must* for audio production, but not for audio in
general. For example, if you have a surround system like in a home
cinema, pulseaudio is the audio system that just works. Not jack.





Am I supposed to "rm /usr/bin/pulseaudio" to make jack work ?, or it is just that Ubuntu Studio is not ready to be used for music production in a real sense ? = it is just for testing and experimenting



US is almost there. Imho, US should add the first user to the audio group automatically so that jackd starts out of the box from qjackctl. jackd post inst script (in lucid) gives the users in the audio group the privileges that jackd needs.*



For the rest, qjackctl launches pasuspender so pulseaudio is (almost) out of the way.

Afaik, a cleaner approach than pasuspender or the rm you suggest in getting rid of pulseaudio is the following:

qjackctl --> Options tab, execute script on startup:


pulseaudio -k

(this kills pulseaudio) (artsshell sounds like jurasic)
*
However, pulseaudio will respawn automatically if you don't do the following:

$ sudo edit /etc/pulse/client.conf

Change the line:


; autospawn = yes
to:
autospawn = no

If you wish to start pulseaudio, once the jack session is finished:

$ pulseaudio --start

BTW, pavucontrol seems better to me than gnome sound control, both being pulseaudio control interfaces.



Cheers! Pablo


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Old 05-31-2010, 06:36 PM
Brian David
 
Default What's wrong with jack ?

On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Jose H. <joseche@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all,

Jack is used for everything, it just seems to be the standard for anything related to audio in linux, BUT it doesn't work out of the box in Ubuntu Studio, which for me seems like a huge contradiction, you have everything that works with jack, but jack doesn't work :S



Am I supposed to "rm /usr/bin/pulseaudio" to make jack work ?, or it is just that Ubuntu Studio is not ready to be used for music production in a real sense ? = it is just for testing and experimenting



Thanks.



Jack is like a lot of other things in Linux: for better or worse, the quality and versatility of the software is the top priority, and an easy user experience is often not a main consideration.* For this reason, there's a fairly steep learning curve for using audio in Ubuntu, but it is worth it.* Having used Ubuntu for audio work for about a year and half now, I can comfortably say that, with a well set up system, Linux will out perform any other OS when it comes to audio.


That being said, when it comes to getting Jack started, in most cases it involves simply adding yourself to the 'audio' group (as someone else has already mentioned).* If you're using a firewire device, you will also want to use Ubuntu Studio Controls (under System > Administration) to get the right permissions by selecting the raw1394 option.* Also, if you're using a version of Ubuntu that is running Network Manager, it is probably a good idea to disable networking while using Jack.


That should get you started.* Of course, there' s a lot of other stuff to learn, and that takes time.
--
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Old 06-01-2010, 08:55 AM
Hartmut Noack
 
Default What's wrong with jack ?

Am 31.05.2010 14:40, schrieb Pablo Fernandez:
> I agree that jack should work out of the box in ubuntustudio but I don't
> agree that pulseaudio should not be the default audio system.
>
> In many cases, jack does not suit users well but pulseaudio is fine.

PA has the potential to solve a lot of old problems in Linux Desktop
audio for good but it is not there yet. So the user should have the
option to disable it completely - the same as he/she has the option not
to use nautilus or apache.
And this should be possible *without* deinstalling it.

> As I see it, Jack is a must for audio production, but not for audio in
> general. For example, if you have a surround system like in a home cinema,
> pulseaudio is the audio system that just works. Not jack.
>
>
>
>> Am I supposed to *"rm /usr/bin/pulseaudio"* to make jack work ?

This may or may not work I suppose it will not for it canwill break many
other things on the desktop, crashing apps etc.

>> just that Ubuntu Studio is not ready to be used for music production in a
>> real sense ? = it is just for testing and experimenting
>>
>
> US is almost there. Imho, US should add the first user to the audio group
> automatically so that jackd starts out of the box from qjackctl. jackd post
> inst script (in lucid) gives the users in the audio group the privileges
> that jackd needs.

Again: is there ANY sane reason, that this script does not edit
/etc/security/limits.conf?

The script works but it breaks standards, that used to work like a charm
for years now in the Linux audio realm. Asking G "how to setup linux for
jack" turns out dozens of tutorials how to set up limits.conf. All of
those work perfectly well on any Linux.

Plus, as you mention yourself later on, the script must set up group
audio as well, this is a no-brainer and I really do not know, why the
packagers do not implement that.

> For the rest, qjackctl launches pasuspender so pulseaudio is (almost) out of
> the way.

I recommend that. It works very much OK for me.

> Afaik, a cleaner approach than pasuspender or the rm you suggest in getting
> rid of pulseaudio is the following:
>
> qjackctl --> Options tab, execute script on startup:
> pulseaudio -k
>
> (this kills pulseaudio) (artsshell sounds like jurasic)
>
> However, pulseaudio will respawn automatically if you don't do the
> following:
>
> $ sudo edit /etc/pulse/client.conf
>
> Change the line:
> ; autospawn = yes
> to:
> autospawn = no
>
> If you wish to start pulseaudio, once the jack session is finished:
>
> $ pulseaudio --start

This methods I tried in Open Suse 11.2 and it broke my system so
globally and totally that I abandoned the OpenSuse-Installation. So I
really recommend to check out, if pasuspender does the trick or try a
system, that is 100% geared towards audio-power use such as pure:dyne or
AVLinux. Both outperform anything else in audio today but they are not
as nice a desktop as Ubuntu and they do not have such a big community
and most of all: they lack the near-perfectly integrated big
repositories Ubuntu has.


Best regards,
HZN/Berlin



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Old 06-01-2010, 12:08 PM
Pablo Fernandez
 
Default What's wrong with jack ?

*So the user should have the

option to disable it completely - the same as he/she has the option not

to use nautilus or apache.

And this should be possible *without* deinstalling it.*

I agree
*



Again: is there ANY sane reason, that this script does not edit

/etc/security/limits.conf?



The script works but it breaks standards, that used to work like a charm

for years now in the Linux audio realm. Asking G "how to setup linux for

jack" turns out dozens of tutorials how to set up limits.conf. All of

those work perfectly well on any Linux.

I find it neater the way it is now. As a user, I think the case
is similar to /etc/apt/sources.list and /etc/apt/sources.list.d/someother.list
Particular configurations for particular goals are in a separate file.

Someone in the LAU list mentioned other examples and gave better reasons.
Anyway,* the user does not have to bother anymore with editing a system file.

More authoritative reasons are here:
*http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=507248

I like when Steve writes "common doesn't mean correct".

We will have to learn again*
*



Plus, as you mention yourself later on, the script must set up group

audio as well, this is a no-brainer and I really do not know, why the

packagers do not implement that.

I didn't say exactly so. I think a package script must not deal with users and groups.
But the distro should do it, imho.
*



> For the rest, qjackctl launches pasuspender so pulseaudio is (almost) out of

> the way.



I recommend that. It works very much OK for me.



> Afaik, a cleaner approach than pasuspender or the rm you suggest in getting

> rid of pulseaudio is the following:

>

> qjackctl --> *Options tab, execute script on startup:

> pulseaudio -k

>

> (this kills pulseaudio) (artsshell sounds like jurasic)

>

> However, pulseaudio will respawn automatically if you don't do the

> following:

>

> $ sudo edit /etc/pulse/client.conf

>

> Change the line:

> ; autospawn = yes

> to:

> autospawn = no

>

> If you wish to start pulseaudio, once the jack session is finished:

>

> $ pulseaudio --start



This methods I tried in Open Suse 11.2 and it broke my system so

globally and totally that I abandoned the OpenSuse-Installation. So I

really recommend to check out, if pasuspender does the trick
In my case, pasuspender does the trick but I don't want a pulseaudio daemon running at all.
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudioPreparation#Pulse%20Audio

recommends creating a ~/.pulse/client.conf* with "autospawn = no" (instead of editing the system wide /etc/pulse/client.conf as I suggested) and then put "pulseaudio -k" as a "Startup Application".*


Cheers! Pablo



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Old 06-01-2010, 01:11 PM
Hartmut Noack
 
Default What's wrong with jack ?

Am 01.06.2010 14:08, schrieb Pablo Fernandez:

> I find it neater the way it is now. As a user, I think the case
> is similar to /etc/apt/sources.list and
> /etc/apt/sources.list.d/someother.list
> Particular configurations for particular goals are in a separate file.
> Someone in the LAU list mentioned other examples and gave better reasons.
> Anyway, the user does not have to bother anymore with editing a system
> file.
>
> More authoritative reasons are here:
> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=507248

Very interesting read - thanks for the link!

This discussion shows quite clearly, where the overall problem with
pro-audio on Linux lies: Those, who do the good work in building Distros
like Debian do not know about pro-audio. If you tell them, that it is so
demanding, they see a risk for their overall working system/security
etc. And they are apalled to hear, that there are some crazy people out
there, that want to have a 970MB-File locked into memory to be
accessible with less then 10ms latency.

This I understand but I do absolutely not understand, that these
tech-people do not react like this:

"Well quite interesting stuff, you crazies do there - let us do whatever
possible and sane to make our system support such incredible features!"

They act more like:

"Comeon, do not bother us with such strange single-user
niche-applications. Do this if you like but stay away from our great
system settings that work so well for dozens of years now."

> I like when Steve writes "common doesn't mean correct".

I am not sure if he really knows, what he is talking about.

The whole thing is, that jack, though it is a user-process, needs to be
priviledged even more than the avarage root-process in order to work
properly for the user. And this is not a bug or a flaw in the design of
jack but simply a neccissity. This process needs to access data as fast
as technically possible. Can the kernel-memory management guarranty
that? Apparantly not. So you have 2 decisons:

1.) have a system set up conservatively for everyone, that runs normal
Desktop-Apps and thats it. No RT-apps on Linux at least not for users
with higher skills in tweaking system settings.

2.) find a sane way to let the user decide, what he/she likes to do with
the system-setup.

>
> We will have to learn again

Everybody needs to learn every day.

>
>>
>> Plus, as you mention yourself later on, the script must set up group
>> audio as well, this is a no-brainer and I really do not know, why the
>> packagers do not implement that.
>>
>
> I didn't say exactly so. I think a package script must not deal with users
> and groups.
> But the distro should do it, imho.

You mean: group audio should be set up in the initial install and the
first user should be in that group?
Why?

>
>>
>>> For the rest, qjackctl launches pasuspender so pulseaudio is (almost) out
>> of
>>> the way.
>>
>> I recommend that. It works very much OK for me.
>>
>>> Afaik, a cleaner approach than pasuspender or the rm you suggest in
>> getting
>>> rid of pulseaudio is the following:
>>>
>>> qjackctl --> Options tab, execute script on startup:
>>> pulseaudio -k
>>>
>>> (this kills pulseaudio) (artsshell sounds like jurasic)
>>>
>>> However, pulseaudio will respawn automatically if you don't do the
>>> following:
>>>
>>> $ sudo edit /etc/pulse/client.conf
>>>
>>> Change the line:
>>> ; autospawn = yes
>>> to:
>>> autospawn = no
>>>
>>> If you wish to start pulseaudio, once the jack session is finished:
>>>
>>> $ pulseaudio --start
>>
>> This methods I tried in Open Suse 11.2 and it broke my system so
>> globally and totally that I abandoned the OpenSuse-Installation. So I
>> really recommend to check out, if pasuspender does the trick
>
>
> In my case, pasuspender does the trick but I don't want a pulseaudio daemon
> running at all.
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudioPreparation#Pulse%20Audio
> recommends creating a *~/.pulse/client.conf* with "autospawn = no" (instead
> of editing the system wide /etc/pulse/client.conf as I suggested) and then
> put "pulseaudio -k" as a "Startup Application".


The latter looks promising. If I find the time, Ill try it just for
curiosity ;-)

best regs

HZN

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Old 06-01-2010, 01:32 PM
Ricardo Lameiro
 
Default What's wrong with jack ?

Hello List,*
Well, I have been reading the messages and there is a couple things that people don't discuss or maybe don't know.
As of Ubuntu/UbuntuStudio 10.04, Jack is on the main repositories, this is a huge improvement from the past. what does this mean?

If you do a fresh install, at install time, either alternate install or ubiquity will prompt the user if they want to install and setup jack.This means that the audio group and the settings are made on install time. Another thing is that the settings now are at

/etc/security/limits.d/audio.confmore info at*https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudioPreparation

There is also underway, some efforts to use Jack2, that is Dbus enabled. this will enable"in theory" a good and*seemingly interaction with PulseAudio. thing aren't perfect, true, but sometimes we need to help each other to find the better solutions, and also, try to give that solutions to the devs.
*The devs have families to, lives, they dont work for canonical, ubuntustudio is a community project, and i think sometimes people forget that, they just want it working without giving nothing back.*I love this discussion, because at least some people want it to become better and do exchange info. So i hope with all of our efforts as users, we could help as much as we can the dev team. this is a win for all of us.

Ricardo Lameiro
*2010/6/1 Hartmut Noack <zettberlin@linuxuse.de>

Am 01.06.2010 14:08, schrieb Pablo Fernandez:



> I find it neater the way it is now. As a user, I think the case

> is similar to /etc/apt/sources.list and

> /etc/apt/sources.list.d/someother.list

> Particular configurations for particular goals are in a separate file.

> Someone in the LAU list mentioned other examples and gave better reasons.

> Anyway, *the user does not have to bother anymore with editing a system

> file.

>

> More authoritative reasons are here:

> * http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=507248



Very interesting read - thanks for the link!



This discussion shows quite clearly, where the overall problem with

pro-audio on Linux lies: Those, who do the good work in building Distros

like Debian do not know about pro-audio. If you tell them, that it is so

demanding, they see a risk for their overall working system/security

etc. And they are apalled to hear, that there are some crazy people out

there, that want to have a 970MB-File locked into memory to be

accessible with less then 10ms latency.



This I understand but I do absolutely not understand, that these

tech-people do not react like this:



"Well quite interesting stuff, you crazies do there - let us do whatever

possible and sane to make our system support such incredible features!"



They act more like:



"Comeon, do not bother us with such strange single-user

niche-applications. Do this if you like but stay away from our great

system settings that work so well for dozens of years now."



> I like when Steve writes "common doesn't mean correct".



I am not sure if he really knows, what he is talking about.



The whole thing is, that jack, though it is a user-process, needs to be

priviledged even more than the avarage root-process in order to work

properly for the user. And this is not a bug or a flaw in the design of

jack but simply a neccissity. This process needs to access data as fast

as technically possible. Can the kernel-memory management guarranty

that? Apparantly not. So you have 2 decisons:



1.) have a system set up conservatively for everyone, that runs normal

Desktop-Apps and thats it. No RT-apps on Linux at least not for users

with higher skills in tweaking system settings.



2.) find a sane way to let the user decide, what he/she likes to do with

the system-setup.



>

> We will have to learn again *



Everybody needs to learn every day.



>

>>

>> Plus, as you mention yourself later on, the script must set up group

>> audio as well, this is a no-brainer and I really do not know, why the

>> packagers do not implement that.

>>

>

> I didn't say exactly so. I think a package script must not deal with users

> and groups.

> But the distro should do it, imho.



You mean: group audio should be set up in the initial install and the

first user should be in that group?

Why?



>

>>

>>> For the rest, qjackctl launches pasuspender so pulseaudio is (almost) out

>> of

>>> the way.

>>

>> I recommend that. It works very much OK for me.

>>

>>> Afaik, a cleaner approach than pasuspender or the rm you suggest in

>> getting

>>> rid of pulseaudio is the following:

>>>

>>> qjackctl --> * Options tab, execute script on startup:

>>> pulseaudio -k

>>>

>>> (this kills pulseaudio) (artsshell sounds like jurasic)

>>>

>>> However, pulseaudio will respawn automatically if you don't do the

>>> following:

>>>

>>> $ sudo edit /etc/pulse/client.conf

>>>

>>> Change the line:

>>> ; autospawn = yes

>>> to:

>>> autospawn = no

>>>

>>> If you wish to start pulseaudio, once the jack session is finished:

>>>

>>> $ pulseaudio --start

>>

>> This methods I tried in Open Suse 11.2 and it broke my system so

>> globally and totally that I abandoned the OpenSuse-Installation. So I

>> really recommend to check out, if pasuspender does the trick

>

>

> In my case, pasuspender does the trick but I don't want a pulseaudio daemon

> running at all.

> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudioPreparation#Pulse%20Audio

> recommends creating a *~/.pulse/client.conf* *with "autospawn = no" (instead

> of editing the system wide /etc/pulse/client.conf as I suggested) and then

> put "pulseaudio -k" as a "Startup Application".





The latter looks promising. If I find the time, Ill try it just for

curiosity ;-)



best regs



HZN



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