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2009/12/4 Lindsay Haisley <fmouse@fmp.com>

On Fri, 2009-12-04 at 17:00 +0000, Ricardo Lameiro wrote:

> IMHO the BIG problem comes when the users think that a GUI is always

> better than CLI. Some users think that CLI is very outdated etc...



The CLI is by no means outdated, but of all the classes of tasks one can

do on any computer, the CLI is probably _least_ suited to audio and

multimedia work. *The industry standards for professional recording and

editing UIs are graphical. *Linux isn't the industry leader, regardless

of the quality of the Linux CLI and GUI software available.



The CLI really comes into its own for system administration work, which

is another thing altogether.


Yes is true, but i wasnt talkning about audio work, but system config. I never said CLI is good for audio work...




> *well about that i just tell this:

> Count the time you take running the menus to start, for example

> firefox, and the time takes you to type in the CLI firefox.... than

> you have an idea....



A proper GUI, including Gnome or KDE, lets me put an icon for Firefox on

my desktop or toolbar (a one-time operation) which I can click once to

bring up firefox - faster than typing it in.





YEs you can put it. I have that, I even use the Cairo dock , but firefox was only an example... I tought it was clear....


>

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>> The CLI is by no means outdated, but of all the classes of tasks one can
>> do on any computer, the CLI is probably _least_ suited to audio and
>> multimedia work.

But with out CLI I would not be able to run wine programs.
An icon for wine never give good results (maybe it's me)
but if I do "cd .wine/drive_c/???/???" then "wine program" It runs
good and if it doesn't I can see the error to fix.

Leo

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On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Leo <leoave@gmail.com> wrote:

>> The CLI is by no means outdated, but of all the classes of tasks one can

>> do on any computer, the CLI is probably _least_ suited to audio and

>> multimedia work.



But with out CLI I would not be able to run wine programs.

An icon for wine never give good results (maybe it's me)

but if I do "cd .wine/drive_c/???/???" then "wine program" It runs

good and if it doesn't I can see the error to fix.



Leo




I understand the frustration that a lot of experienced users have with those who do not want to learn to use the ins and outs of a system in order to best utilize that system.* However, there are a few points that I think many in the 'just learn Linux and CLI' crowd often don't consider.* First, there is the contradictory thought process that wonders why more people don't contribute to projects like this, while at the same time frowning on people who complain about a tough user experience and telling them to just learn the 'right' way or whatnot.* Sorry, but you are never going to get people to join the project if you treat them like that.


Second, and more importantly, developers really need to consider the type of experience that the average user is going to expect, and in the case of this project, the average audio/visual designer.* You can rant all you want about how the CLI is better, but the truth is that the great majority of people are simply never going to learn to use it.* Doesn't matter whether it is right or wrong, it just is.* It is perfectly acceptible for designers to respond by saying 'tough, learn it the way it is', but if so, those same people should not be surprised if their software always remains a niche project used by a small group of people, and developed by an even smaller group.


However, this isn't just any project, this is a derivative of Ubuntu, a distribution that has the reputation of being THE user-friendly LInux distro.* A goal of any project carrying that name should be to aim for the most user-friendly experience.

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Brian David schrieb:
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Leo <leoave@gmail.com
> <mailto:leoave@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >> The CLI is by no means outdated, but of all the classes of
> tasks one can
> >> do on any computer, the CLI is probably _least_ suited to audio and
> >> multimedia work.
>
> But with out CLI I would not be able to run wine programs.
> An icon for wine never give good results (maybe it's me)
> but if I do "cd .wine/drive_c/???/???" then "wine program" It runs
> good and if it doesn't I can see the error to fix.
>
> Leo
>
>
> I understand the frustration that a lot of experienced users have with
> those who do not want to learn to use the ins and outs of a system in
> order to best utilize that system. However, there are a few points
> that I think many in the 'just learn Linux and CLI' crowd often don't
> consider. First, there is the contradictory thought process that
> wonders why more people don't contribute to projects like this, while
> at the same time frowning on people who complain about a tough user
> experience and telling them to just learn the 'right' way or whatnot.
> Sorry, but you are never going to get people to join the project if
> you treat them like that.
>
> Second, and more importantly, developers really need to consider the
> type of experience that the average user is going to expect, and in
> the case of this project, the average audio/visual designer. You can
> rant all you want about how the CLI is better, but the truth is that
> the great majority of people are simply never going to learn to use
> it. Doesn't matter whether it is right or wrong, it just is. It is
> perfectly acceptible for designers to respond by saying 'tough, learn
> it the way it is', but if so, those same people should not be
> surprised if their software always remains a niche project used by a
> small group of people, and developed by an even smaller group.
>
> However, this isn't just any project, this is a derivative of Ubuntu,
> a distribution that has the reputation of being THE user-friendly
> LInux distro. A goal of any project carrying that name should be to
> aim for the most user-friendly experience.
> --
> -Brian David
I think I am such an average user, skeptical against close source, low
budgeted and trying to stay inside laws even if not concerned. I came
from windows not so long ago without any linux or coding knowledge. For
my opinion i. e. tweaking rt latency is much more userfriendly in
ubuntustudio then trying similar in xp. Guess someone really motivated
for getting a high quality multimedia environment will not avoid some
reading, asking and experimentation. There is much help around and if
one is really curious and interested (s)he will get the necessary skills
in a short time. And if (s)he makes a lot of money so (s)he doesn't have
enough time for reading and testing themselves there will be excellent
commercial support too. Did someone here try to tweak uptodate
commercial MS audio software on a 3 years old standard windows machine
for passable performance? I'm sure (s)he will stop complaining about
ubuntustudio.

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Hey, I know I'm not exactly a power user on this list, but I thought I'd chime in. Obviously this is all just my opinion.
Mostly I agree with everything Brian David said, but I'd like to elaborate.
> First, there> is the contradictory thought process that wonders why more people don't> contribute to projects like this, while at the same time frowning on people> who complain about a tough user experience and telling them to just learn> the 'right' way or whatnot.
This is important. I blame the fact that the Linux community has too large of a programmer-to-user ratio. That's completely understandable for any sort of DIY community, but if any variety of GNU/Linux wants to break out of its niche market, it needs to explicitly change its goals to attract a user base that is less computer literate.
There are reasons for that relative computer illiteracy, and they are not bad ones. For instance: If you tell a recording engineer to just learn the task the "right" way, are you going to pay them $100/hour to do it? That's how much they'd lose in studio time.
> developers really need to consider the type of> experience that the average user is going to expect, and in the case of this> project, the average audio/visual designer.
Bingo. Because it's geared towards A/V users, Ubuntu Studio needs to be even more user-friendly than vanilla Ubuntu. "So simple, even Ted Nugent can use it."
Here's one suggestion: Stop thinking about Linux vs. Windows, and start thinking about Linux vs. Mac. For at least ten years, NOBODY in the A/V industry used Windows. Even today, almost all my musician friends use a Mac if they have a choice.
Another suggestion: Stop thinking of A/V programs as computer programs. Get up from your computer, and go browse the shelves of Guitar Center. Remember back in the 80's, when digital synths were coming around? Remember having to scroll through all those menus on your DX7 or K2000? That interface style is mostly gone now, and there's a very good reason for that.
> However, this isn't just any project, this is a derivative of Ubuntu, a> distribution that has the reputation of being THE user-friendly LInux> distro.
And one which has entirely the right idea. Think of how many Linux users y'all know personally. How many of them use Ubuntu (or a derivative) vs. any other distro? I don't know the official numbers, but ALMOST ALL of my Linux-using friends use Ubuntu, and the main reason is user-friendliness.
That's why I'm so distressed when I hear all these reports about RT kernal bugs, having to edit config files, setting up user groups, etc. The whole idea behind Ubuntu was that the average user would never have to worry about any of these things. It's also the reason I haven't upgraded from 8.10.
I know this would take a huge amount of work, but have y'all considered branching from Ubuntu altogether? A lot of these bugs seem to happen because UbuStu needs to keep up with Ubuntu's (rather rapid) release schedule. That way, you could focus less on keeping up with the Joneses, and focus on releasing only after the system is rock-hard stable.
Thinking about an even bigger picture, has anyone suggested forming a standards body for audio programming? That way, everything could be designed to work together a lot better. I'm thinking a sort of W3C for audio.
Like I said, this is just talk on my part. Feel free to reject any or all of what I just said.
-Karlheinz_______________________
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Excellent points, Karlheinz, and a right-on perspective.

I'm going to chime in in support. I am an experienced performer and
musician, have recorded (commercially) a number of my own albums and
CDs, and at one time owned and operated my own analog recording studio.
My other hat is as the owner and operator of an online (LAMP-based) web
and email hosting service, FMP Computer Services, and as a Linux system
administration consultant. I get paid for this, too :-)

On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 10:28 -0500, Karlheinz Noise wrote:
> > First, there
> > is the contradictory thought process that wonders why more people don't
> > contribute to projects like this, while at the same time frowning on people
> > who complain about a tough user experience and telling them to just learn
> > the 'right' way or whatnot.
>
> This is important. I blame the fact that the Linux community has too
> large of a programmer-to-user ratio. That's completely understandable
> for any sort of DIY community, but if any variety of GNU/Linux wants
> to break out of its niche market, it needs to explicitly change its
> goals to attract a user base that is less computer literate.

Classically, the F/OSS community doesn't care if it "breaks out" of, or
breaks into any market. Market share isn't a goal, just a byproduct of
creating software software that meets a very high standard of
excellence, and excellence is the objective.

The appropriate response to any criticism would be "if you don't like
it, go buy Pro Tools." On the other hand, defining excellence with
regard to A/V software has to mean that any reasonably intelligent and
resourceful studio engineer or producer can use the software in a way
that allows him or her to focus on the rather complex issues of
production, recording, mixing, punching, etc. and not on configuring the
software. One of the objectives of good A/V software design should be
transparency.

> There are reasons for that relative computer illiteracy, and they are
> not bad ones. For instance: If you tell a recording engineer to just
> learn the task the "right" way, are you going to pay them $100/hour to
> do it? That's how much they'd lose in studio time.

Good point! Developing competitive skills as a recording engineer is a
major educational undertaking. Everyone who goes through this kind of
educational experience, doctors, engineers, whatever, becomes more
conservative about their tools.

> Here's one suggestion: Stop thinking about Linux vs. Windows, and
> start thinking about Linux vs. Mac. For at least ten years, NOBODY in
> the A/V industry used Windows. Even today, almost all my musician
> friends use a Mac if they have a choice.

The Mac has been the de facto standard platform for the A/V industry for
years, going back even longer than the 10 that Karlheinz cites.
Windows-based tools have made some inroads, but the Mac and Mac OSes are
still the standard platform. Pro Tools on the Mac, and the various
software and hardware components that work with it are the gold standard
for digital recording. Pro Tools has pretty much defined the look and
feel of the UI that recording and production people expect.

I've used Ardour2 and like it rather well, but it's godawful difficult
to figure out how to do various jobs on it, and the documentation is
pretty sketchy. There are features in it that I have no idea how to
use, or understand, and no time to explore when I'm using it to do a
musical job. One indicator of an immature technology or tool is that
the development of it gets way ahead of the documentation. This isn't
necessarily bad, just an indication that it's still very much a Work In
Progress.

> Another suggestion: Stop thinking of A/V programs as computer
> programs. Get up from your computer, and go browse the shelves of
> Guitar Center. Remember back in the 80's, when digital synths were
> coming around? Remember having to scroll through all those menus on
> your DX7 or K2000? That interface style is mostly gone now, and
> there's a very good reason for that.

Better still, go visit one of your professional recording engineer
friends and watch as he or she uses modern commercial digital recording
tools.

> I don't know the official numbers, but ALMOST ALL of my Linux-using
> friends use Ubuntu, and the main reason is user-friendliness.

For me, it's not just user-friendliness. I can handle the system admin
stuff, but I like software that's solid around the edges and doesn't
flake out, break or do weird and unexpected things. Ubuntu partakes of
Debian's quality, which is considerable. I don't care for the attitudes
of a lot of Debian QA and developer people - they tend to have their
noses stuck straight up into the air - but Ubuntu people seem to be much
more friendly and socially apt in this regard.

> That way, you could focus less on keeping up with the Joneses, and
> focus on releasing only after the system is rock-hard stable.

Rock-hard stable and reliable is _very_ good for a software tool that
basically needs to do a complex technical job and stay out of the way.

> Like I said, this is just talk on my part. Feel free to reject any or
> all of what I just said.

You make a lot of good points, Karlheinz.

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On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse@fmp.com> wrote:

Excellent points, Karlheinz, and a right-on perspective.



I'm going to chime in in support. *I am an experienced performer and

musician, have recorded (commercially) a number of my own albums and

CDs, and at one time owned and operated my own analog recording studio.

My other hat is as the owner and operator of an online (LAMP-based) web

and email hosting service, FMP Computer Services, and as a Linux system

administration consultant. *I get paid for this, too :-)



On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 10:28 -0500, Karlheinz Noise wrote:

> > First, there

> > is the contradictory thought process that wonders why more people don't

> > contribute to projects like this, while at the same time frowning on people

> > who complain about a tough user experience and telling them to just learn

> > the 'right' way or whatnot.

>

> This is important. I blame the fact that the Linux community has too

> large of a programmer-to-user ratio. That's completely understandable

> for any sort of DIY community, but if any variety of GNU/Linux wants

> to break out of its niche market, it needs to explicitly change its

> goals to attract a user base that is less computer literate.


*SNIP*
You make a lot of good points, Karlheinz.




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Lindsay, I agree with a whole lot of what you say, but this line is an example one of my greatest pet peeves in discussions like this:

"The appropriate response to any criticism would be "if you don't like


it, go buy Pro Tools."

That is absolutely not the appropriate response.* The right response is, in fact, what a lot of devs on this list do, to their credit.* It is to ask those with criticisms to participate in development in some way.


A comunity developed project is not well served by telling people to go take a hike.* And no project anywhere, community-developed or otherwise, is well-served by deflecting criticism with flippant responses.*


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On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 6:18 PM, Brian David <beejunk@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse@fmp.com> wrote:

Lindsay, I agree with a whole lot of what you say, but this line is an example one of my greatest pet peeves in discussions like this:


"The appropriate response to any criticism would be "if you don't like


it, go buy Pro Tools."

That is absolutely not the appropriate response.* The right response is, in fact, what a lot of devs on this list do, to their credit.* It is to ask those with criticisms to participate in development in some way.



A comunity developed project is not well served by telling people to go take a hike.* And no project anywhere, community-developed or otherwise, is well-served by deflecting criticism with flippant responses.*




-Brian David


I should add, since we all know that tone doesn't come across in e-mails, that I'm not suggesting that Lindsay is using flippant responses to deflect criticism.* I refer only to those who earnestly use a statements like "if you don't like it, go buy Pro Tools."

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On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 18:18 -0600, Brian David wrote:
> That is absolutely not the appropriate response. The right response
> is, in fact, what a lot of devs on this list do, to their credit. It
> is to ask those with criticisms to participate in development in some
> way.
>
> A comunity developed project is not well served by telling people to
> go take a hike. And no project anywhere, community-developed or
> otherwise, is well-served by deflecting criticism with flippant
> responses.

I pretty much agree with this in general. The "appropriate response"
that I mean is an answer to the charge, voiced usually by people who
don't understand F/OSS, which goes something like "If Linux people want
to get more market share.... etc., etc." Linux isn't about market
share. Generally, F/OSS progresses by virtue of effort in a gift
economy, and developers rightly don't care about market share. So your
point is well taken in that the appropriate answer to "this software
should ...." is "then jump in and make it ....".

On the other hand, for people who are looking for a tool to do a job,
and are not programmers, and are not satisfied with a F/OSS A/V package,
getting involved with development may not be a realistic option, and for
them "go buy Pro Tools" is not flippant, but very possibly good advice.
It's not the responsibility of F/OSS developers to program according to
the specs dictated or required by users. Those who do get caught up in
development are often involved in what all too often is a perpetual Work
in Progress, which is one of the pitfalls of F/OSS development. Some
projects, which are well managed, are usable and mature, even in
unstable or SVN versions (I work on the Bluefish HTML editor, which is
one such project thanks to Olivier Sessink's capable leadership).
Others have a perpetually unfinished feel, even in stable versions.
ALSA was a wasteland of arcane data structures, bad or absent
documentation, bugs, incompatibilities and other gremlins for years. It
seems to be a bit better these days, but it took a _long_ time.

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On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 18:48 -0600, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> <snip>
> I pretty much agree with this in general. The "appropriate response"
> that I mean is an answer to the charge, voiced usually by people who
> don't understand F/OSS, which goes something like "If Linux people want
> to get more market share.... etc., etc." Linux isn't about market
> share. Generally, F/OSS progresses by virtue of effort in a gift
> economy, and developers rightly don't care about market share. So your
> point is well taken in that the appropriate answer to "this software
> should ...." is "then jump in and make it ....".
>
> On the other hand, for people who are looking for a tool to do a job,
> and are not programmers, and are not satisfied with a F/OSS A/V package,
> getting involved with development may not be a realistic option, and for
> them "go buy Pro Tools" is not flippant, but very possibly good advice.
> It's not the responsibility of F/OSS developers to program according to
> the specs dictated or required by users. Those who do get caught up in
> development are often involved in what all too often is a perpetual Work
> in Progress, which is one of the pitfalls of F/OSS development. Some
> projects, which are well managed, are usable and mature, even in
> unstable or SVN versions (I work on the Bluefish HTML editor, which is
> one such project thanks to Olivier Sessink's capable leadership).
> Others have a perpetually unfinished feel, even in stable versions.
> ALSA was a wasteland of arcane data structures, bad or absent
> documentation, bugs, incompatibilities and other gremlins for years. It
> seems to be a bit better these days, but it took a _long_ time.

Let me state for the record, I'm not flaming anyone or anything. So, let
me play devils advocate for a bit:

To paraphrase a lot of this thread: "F/OSS is for software geeks and
tinkers, so if you want to do creative work, that does not involve
learning or creating software, then go buy ***software application for
whatever creative art you choose*** (i.e. protools, photoshop, Adobe
studio, etc.)"

With this in mind, let's pop over to a home page, for just about any
major app under Ubuntu, for exampl let's choose Ubuntu Studio. The page
announces: "Let your creativity fly..." in big bold letters. Later it
says: "It's easy. Just...". And below that it lists: "Audio, Graphics,
Video".

Software development, system level tweaking, and learning Linux are
mentioned NO WHERE.

<devils advocate mode off>

Now I searched for the lawyer speak, in small print where it says:
"General knowledge of Linux system admin, software development,
understanding of xwindows, and other geeky stuff may be required before
successful creativity in audio, graphics, or video can be achieved."

Couldn't find it.

Maybe this clause should be there...isn't that what's being implied by
this thread?

Basically, what's said over and over in countless forums is: if you just
want to use F/OSS because you believe it's a better way (i.e. because of
the philosophy) and you can't, for whatever reason, help make it
better(i.e. jump in and write code, fix bugs, write documentation,
etc.), leave us alone. And certainly don't point out bugs or
deficiencies.

Side Note: there is a reason software companies have QA departments that
don't write code and all they do is point out bugs and deficiencies. I
kinda see the user base of any F/OSS app as being this department.

I guess my point is: if this stuff is only for people who have skills
and/or plenty of spare time to help in other ways, then state that up
front and scare all the other folks away immediately and don't waste
their time.






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