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Old 12-06-2009, 01:49 PM
Sergio Bello
 
Default waiting for professional grade

On Sun, 2009-12-06 at 09:17 -0500, mac wrote:
>
> I guess my point is: if this stuff is only for people who have skills
> and/or plenty of spare time to help in other ways, then state that up
> front and scare all the other folks away immediately and don't waste
> their time.
>


I wasted *a lot* of my time solving *basic* problems to
friends/co-workers/parents on windows. And there's no "General knowledge
of Windows system admin, MSDN searching, understanding of registry, and
other geeky stuff may be required to do XYZ..." disclaimer there, too.

It's just a different approach: people is used to think that windows is
a necessary evil - no choice, no complaint - whereas with Linux some
people think they can deliberately blame Linux developers and the
community at large ('what? aren't you ready for me? what a stupid waste
of time!').

Sergio



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Old 12-06-2009, 03:20 PM
Heiko Kokemoor
 
Default waiting for professional grade

> "Let your creativity fly..." in big bold letters. Later it
> says: "It's easy. Just...". And below that it lists: "Audio, Graphics,
> Video".
>
> Software development, system level tweaking, and learning Linux are
> mentioned NO WHERE.
>
> <devils advocate mode off>

> "General knowledge of Linux system admin, software development,
> understanding of xwindows, and other geeky stuff may be required before
> successful creativity in audio, graphics, or video can be achieved."
>
> Couldn't find it.


To my mind you pointed out the most importand point, not only for Ubuntu
Studio, but for many products, no matter if open or closed source.
It's plain marketing, a lie.

Even if you are a dedicated open source fan, normaly you don't think
about the way of marketing.

But if we advertise a product as "easy and so on", then we only copy
closed source marketing. And perhaps it has to be the question, if this
is the right way.
Does opens source the marketing-lies of closed source?

Even for Windows it's a lie, because this product as well can be very
fu..... tricky.

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Old 12-06-2009, 03:39 PM
Kenneth Koym
 
Default waiting for professional grade

Frankly after 50 years of pushing to have tools that work, I find what you people say tough to bring together and ...* After all we come together here to achieve a more perfect OS and deal with a wide number of ?s Could we all benefit from using a Ubuntu Forum approach & let by gones be bygones?*

*
On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Heiko Kokemoor <getting.lists@googlemail.com> wrote:

> "Let your creativity fly..." in big bold letters. Later it

> says: "It's easy. Just...". And below that it lists: "Audio, Graphics,

> Video".

>

> Software development, system level tweaking, and learning Linux are

> mentioned NO WHERE.

>

> <devils advocate mode off>



> "General knowledge of Linux system admin, software development,

> understanding of xwindows, and other geeky stuff may be required before

> successful creativity in audio, graphics, or video can be achieved."

>

> Couldn't find it.





To my mind you pointed out the most importand point, not only for Ubuntu

Studio, but for many products, no matter if open or closed source.

It's plain marketing, a lie.



Even if you are a dedicated open source fan, normaly you don't think

about the way of marketing.



But if we advertise a product as "easy and so on", then we only copy

closed source marketing. And perhaps it has to be the question, if this

is the right way.

Does opens source the marketing-lies of closed source?



Even for Windows it's a lie, because this product as well can be very

fu..... tricky.



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Old 12-06-2009, 05:09 PM
Ricardo Lameiro
 
Default waiting for professional grade

Well about this discussion, iI think ?I am a little bit guilty.

Well resuming the info and ideas. The impression that I get from this discussion is that UbuntuStudio is not a easy to use operative system.
Ubuntu studio doesn't go to the majority of the needs of the most of the people that needs to work with "art".

Because most of the people using linux is geek and doesn't care with the others needs. Also I read that we should look at the MACintosh to see how it works, because everyone in the industry use it for years, and it is solid etc...


Well This is a little bit disturbing indeed, because, normally there are very few inputs to the DEV team. very few ideas and test cases etc. But i see a lot of people complaining. And this nobody can deny. Peple come and just complain, instead of describing the error or the feature etc.


About the Kernel, well, Ubuntu has some differences with the debian Kernel. for instance, I can use restricted modules on the ubuntu Kernel, really easy, in others systems is not so easy.

So instead of flaming the linux geeks about the suposed "easy of use" and the features needed I propose to make a list of ideas and features to bring* to Ubuntustudio.


The objective of this list is for PROFESSIONAL AUDIO/VIDEO/GRAPHICS SYSTEM, not for a desktup use for day to day.

SO I start with some ideas.

- Embed the Realtime configurations from the root up. No especial config for doing it. If it is pro, all the pros need RT KERNEL.

- Interface to configure the priorities and memory limits with GUI
- Make a package out of the UBUNTU universe, that will install FST (VST/wine) with easy, Cant be official, because the vst sdk is not opensource and there are distribution issues (once more, not linux or DEVs fault, but instead Closed software developers fault)

-A UbuntuStudio wiki where user can add easily tutorials, test cases, config tips, hardware tips, etc. Don't need to be a "geek" to help FLOSS. Just need to WANT to help insted of complain. Be more assertive and less negative. be constructive.




So I hope people start to colaborate to make this OS the best suited to do A/V/G work in Linux, But for that we need the help of all the users. even the non geek ones.

As a note, I am not of the DEV team. But if we help them, they will help us. Think in this and give your opinion.

*


2009/12/6 mac <suemac@empire.net>

On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 18:48 -0600, Lindsay Haisley wrote:

> <snip>

> I pretty much agree with this in general. *The "appropriate response"

> that I mean is an answer to the charge, voiced usually by people who

> don't understand F/OSS, which goes something like "If Linux people want

> to get more market share.... etc., etc." *Linux isn't about market

> share. *Generally, F/OSS progresses by virtue of effort in a gift

> economy, and developers rightly don't care about market share. *So your

> point is well taken in that the appropriate answer to "this software

> should ...." is "then jump in and make it ....".

>

> On the other hand, for people who are looking for a tool to do a job,

> and are not programmers, and are not satisfied with a F/OSS A/V package,

> getting involved with development may not be a realistic option, and for

> them "go buy Pro Tools" is not flippant, but very possibly good advice.

> It's not the responsibility of F/OSS developers to program according to

> the specs dictated or required by users. *Those who do get caught up in

> development are often involved in what all too often is a perpetual Work

> in Progress, which is one of the pitfalls of F/OSS development. *Some

> projects, which are well managed, are usable and mature, even in

> unstable or SVN versions (I work on the Bluefish HTML editor, which is

> one such project thanks to Olivier Sessink's capable leadership).

> Others have a perpetually unfinished feel, even in stable versions.

> ALSA was a wasteland of arcane data structures, bad or absent

> documentation, bugs, incompatibilities and other gremlins for years. *It

> seems to be a bit better these days, but it took a _long_ time.



Let me state for the record, I'm not flaming anyone or anything. So, let

me play devils advocate for a bit:



To paraphrase a lot of this thread: "F/OSS is for software geeks and

tinkers, so if you want to do creative work, that does not involve

learning or creating software, then go buy ***software application for

whatever creative art you choose*** (i.e. protools, photoshop, Adobe

studio, etc.)"



With this in mind, let's pop over to a home page, for just about any

major app under Ubuntu, for exampl let's choose Ubuntu Studio. The page

announces: "Let your creativity fly..." in big bold letters. Later it

says: "It's easy. Just...". And below that it lists: "Audio, Graphics,

Video".



Software development, system level tweaking, and learning Linux are

mentioned NO WHERE.



<devils advocate mode off>



Now I searched for the lawyer speak, in small print where it says:

"General knowledge of Linux system admin, software development,

understanding of xwindows, and other geeky stuff may be required before

successful creativity in audio, graphics, or video can be achieved."



Couldn't find it.



Maybe this clause should be there...isn't that what's being implied by

this thread?



Basically, what's said over and over in countless forums is: if you just

want to use F/OSS because you believe it's a better way (i.e. because of

the philosophy) and you can't, for whatever reason, help make it

better(i.e. jump in and write code, fix bugs, write documentation,

etc.), leave us alone. And certainly don't point out bugs or

deficiencies.



Side Note: there is a reason software companies have QA departments that

don't write code and all they do is point out bugs and deficiencies. I

kinda see the user base of any F/OSS app as being this department.



I guess my point is: if this stuff is only for people who have skills

and/or plenty of spare time to help in other ways, then state that up

front and scare all the other folks away immediately and don't waste

their time.













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Old 12-06-2009, 06:42 PM
Lindsay Haisley
 
Default waiting for professional grade

On Sun, 2009-12-06 at 09:17 -0500, mac wrote:
> Let me state for the record, I'm not flaming anyone or anything. So, let
> me play devils advocate for a bit:
>
> To paraphrase a lot of this thread: "F/OSS is for software geeks and
> tinkers, so if you want to do creative work, that does not involve
> learning or creating software, then go buy ***software application for
> whatever creative art you choose*** (i.e. protools, photoshop, Adobe
> studio, etc.)"

This is a generalization of what I said, which was somewhat more
nuanced. The bottom line is that, by its very nature, F/OSS developers
have _no_ responsibility to the end-user community, whatever that may
be. None! Zarro! Zilch!! Open Source is developed in the context of
a gift economy. Developers may _take_ some such responsibility, by
choice, but there's no one really looking over their shoulders requiring
them to do this or do that if they want to continue the work, nor do I
believe there's any such ethical obligation. Often F/OSS software is
written by geeks, for geeks, which is why some packages seem to be
perpetually in a state of flux, or poorly documented. Sometimes such
packages _need_ to be taken over by a commercial entity if they're going
to be usable by the rest of us. CUPS, the Common Unix Printing System,
was a total disaster area from a usability standpoint until Apple took
it over, but now it's a whole lot better. To Apple's credit, they
realized that it was to their advantage to simply put the project on the
right track and leave it in the F/OSS world without trying to co-opt it.

So some F/OSS software may be _very_ usable and intelligently designed.
I use Bluefish for professional HTML editing, and the principal
developers are quite concerned with usability, and although not always
wise in evaluating usability issues, they listen, and understand such
concerns - and often act on them. Likewise, I've used a lot of CD / DVD
recording software for Windows, and for Linux, and have come across few
packages for any platform that are as solid and as intelligently
designed as KDE's k3b utility.

I'm not a diehard /.-er with an attitude that all commercial software is
evil. The dynamics of commercial software creation are such that people
have a chance to vote for the best with the wallets, and good software
sells for a substantial price. People who use it professionally find it
a reasonable price to pay if it improves their work and their
productivity. It's often an honest business relationship which benefits
everyone involved, with nothing evil about it.

> Now I searched for the lawyer speak, in small print where it says:
> "General knowledge of Linux system admin, software development,
> understanding of xwindows, and other geeky stuff may be required before
> successful creativity in audio, graphics, or video can be achieved."
>
> Couldn't find it.

That's because everything you need to know about the package legally is
contained in the GPL, and in the usual disclaimer that there is no
guarantee regarding the usability of the software. Anyone can say
anything about anything. Truth in advertising is only an obligation if
there's a buyer and purchaser involved, and even then caveat emptor is
an established legal principle.

> Basically, what's said over and over in countless forums is: if you just
> want to use F/OSS because you believe it's a better way (i.e. because of
> the philosophy) and you can't, for whatever reason, help make it
> better(i.e. jump in and write code, fix bugs, write documentation,
> etc.), leave us alone. And certainly don't point out bugs or
> deficiencies.

I certainly don't agree with this! And my guess is that the attitude
you describe is generally put forth by people who have never done any
substantial F/OSS software in their lives! The best F/OSS projects
consider thoughtful feedback from _anyone_ using their software as a
resource, and actively solicit bug reports suggestions from
non-developers. It all depends on the project. I found a bug in a
Debian package several years ago and filed a bug report with Debian.
Some fellow in Debian QA jumped in and flamed me because I didn't have
all the reporting formalities in order - the right keywords in the right
places in the report, or some such. I got pissed, and told him so, and
he flamed me back, and before long Joey Hess had to step in and mediate,
which he did quite skillfully. I then took the problem report directly
to the package developer who was quite friendly and glad to get it - in
any form - and he released an updated package with a fix within 24
hours.

So it's really, in the end, not about F/OSS, or the Open Source
philosophy, but about people. Attitudes and approaches to development
and user feedback are as varied as the personalities of the people
involved. Some of the people who yell the loudest about this or about
that may not be the people whose opinions and work are on the line. The
latter are probably too busy doing what they do best to worry about it.

> I guess my point is: if this stuff is only for people who have skills
> and/or plenty of spare time to help in other ways, then state that up
> front and scare all the other folks away immediately and don't waste
> their time.

Living makes us savvy in these things - hopefully. There will always be
things which will waste our time, and some surprises along the way when
we find diamonds in unexpected places. The real skill is to evaluate
our tool options and to be able to determine quickly which are going to
be worth while pursuing, and for what reasons, and which are going to
eat more time and personal bandwidth than we can afford. This goes for
F/OSS and commercial software - both.

--
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FMP Computer Services | who needs Windows | available at
512-259-1190 | or Gates" | http://pubkeys.fmp.com
http://www.fmp.com | |



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Old 12-06-2009, 06:47 PM
Lindsay Haisley
 
Default waiting for professional grade

On Sun, 2009-12-06 at 13:42 -0600, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> The bottom line is that, by its very nature, F/OSS developers
> have _no_ responsibility to the end-user community, whatever that may
> be. None! Zarro! Zilch!!

This does need to be qualified, of course, by saying that no one has a
right to distribute software - F/OSS or otherwise - that's damaging to
another's property or privacy, or clandestinely invasive. These are in
another realm apart from issues of quality and usability.

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Old 12-06-2009, 09:21 PM
Hartmut Noack
 
Default waiting for professional grade

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Heiko Kokemoor schrieb:
>> "Let your creativity fly..." in big bold letters. Later it
>> says: "It's easy. Just...". And below that it lists: "Audio, Graphics,
>> Video".
>>
>> Software development, system level tweaking, and learning Linux are
>> mentioned NO WHERE.
>>
>> <devils advocate mode off>
>
>> "General knowledge of Linux system admin, software development,
>> understanding of xwindows, and other geeky stuff may be required before
>> successful creativity in audio, graphics, or video can be achieved."
>>
>> Couldn't find it.

"Linux is different, you have a chance here to explore new worlds. Take
your 2h time to learn the basics, start using it and find out more every
day about new and innovative concepts in a system that respects the
intelligence of its users - you`ll like it!"

>
> To my mind you pointed out the most importand point, not only for Ubuntu
> Studio, but for many products, no matter if open or closed source.
> It's plain marketing, a lie.

Sad but true.


> But if we advertise a product as "easy and so on", then we only copy
> closed source marketing. And perhaps it has to be the question, if this
> is the right way.

Absolutey not the right way but a dead end.
If the only differece is, that you cannot run Abelton, ProTools and
InDesign on it, then Linux would really be obsolete. It is different and
it should emphasize that in its marketing:

"You have the chance to *learn* new things and use them as a respected
person in a social network, that has its own culture.
Take it or leave it"

> Does opens source the marketing-lies of closed source?

Free systems can and should get marketing but such marketing *must*
avoid lies. 9 out of 10 people are sick and tired of the lies of Apple,
MS, Adobe - you name it. If they come to the GNU-world for relief they
may not even like the complete truth about the system, that runs on
their computer then. But truth is all we have to give and if we give in
to corruption, we are the same as disgusting as the others.

>
> Even for Windows it's a lie, because this product as well can be very
> fu..... tricky.
>
Everybody knows or will learn about that before long. So giving the
user the chance to know the difficulties, he/she will have to master in
Linux right from the start will hurt nobody...

best regs

HZN
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