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Old 01-31-2009, 02:17 PM
Kim Cascone
 
Default studio backups

> And to be fair Kim, it was 1 person. Hardly an ass-chewing.
and to return that fairness I didn't say 'ass-chewing' and I didn't
say that that took place here
FWIW - the 'chewing out' occurred on the ubuntumini list
you guys are better than that!
I simply asked the 'wrong' questions here

but yes many people use the tools for backing up that now come
bundled with OS X and XP
rather than wading through the miasma of Linux utilities that exist
(UI and CLI)
and although most of them have community support
they do not get explained in a clear and concise manner
I done my time in the software industry and I've learned what it
takes to write a useful manual and/or a clear spec for something
IMO: most FOSS manuals or instructions get a D for their work and
usually require some posting on forums to get the experience of
someone who worked thru the unwritten steps

> I don't think your situation is all that common.
really? nobody here has ever had to pop in a clone/mirror/backup/ up
their data in order to restore it to a new and larger drive?
I find that hard to believe


in any event yes rsync is what some people use and I've tested Grsync
but not on command line yet

> Personally, (dev hat off) saving a session in ~/ is nuts to me if HD
> space is even a possibility of an issue. I do *everything* on another
> drive. Just me.
maybe sessions aren't stored there but aren't app settings and the like?




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Old 02-01-2009, 05:20 PM
Gustin Johnson
 
Default studio backups

Kim Cascone wrote:
>> And to be fair Kim, it was 1 person. Hardly an ass-chewing.
> and to return that fairness I didn't say 'ass-chewing' and I didn't
> say that that took place here
> FWIW - the 'chewing out' occurred on the ubuntumini list
> you guys are better than that!
> I simply asked the 'wrong' questions here
>
I am not sure what you mean by this. I thought that it was good that
you were asking the question. Backing up is something that is gets
mentioned a lot but is very rarely done.

> but yes many people use the tools for backing up that now come
> bundled with OS X and XP
> rather than wading through the miasma of Linux utilities that exist
> (UI and CLI)

What tools might these be? From what I have seen, most people do not
even know about Windows "previous versions" and Time Machine. In any
case, neither of these helps you if your hard drive dies, unless you are
saving the data to an external source, which requires someone to make a
change to the config, which most people don't do.

> and although most of them have community support
> they do not get explained in a clear and concise manner
> I done my time in the software industry and I've learned what it
> takes to write a useful manual and/or a clear spec for something
> IMO: most FOSS manuals or instructions get a D for their work and
> usually require some posting on forums to get the experience of
> someone who worked thru the unwritten steps
>
The documentation is like all other software, hit and miss. The one
difference is that with google I am usually able to find what I am
looking for.

I have yet to see documentation come with Windows that was useful (at
least since 3.1). Cubase SX had pitiful documentation. Of course you
can buy some $80+ books that do it right, but most of the time you don't
get this with the software itself and google is not as useful.

By comparison Python, Rosegarden, and bash are just a couple that come
to mind with excellent *free* documentation. I am not a developer and
the reason I am still a FOSS user is that it is reasonably easy for us
mere mortals to figure this stuff out with nothing more than google and
a willingness to learn. The documentation gap is another one of those
myths IMO.

>> I don't think your situation is all that common.
> really? nobody here has ever had to pop in a clone/mirror/backup/ up
> their data in order to restore it to a new and larger drive?
> I find that hard to believe
>
clone/mirror/backup are different things that are suited to different
tasks. I believe that it is important to backup your work, but most
people simply do not do it, regardless of the platform they use.
>
> in any event yes rsync is what some people use and I've tested Grsync
> but not on command line yet
>
>> Personally, (dev hat off) saving a session in ~/ is nuts to me if HD
>> space is even a possibility of an issue. I do *everything* on another
>> drive. Just me.
> maybe sessions aren't stored there but aren't app settings and the like?
>
Nothing I really care about lives in ~/. I too use a different drive
for sessions. I then backup that drive which is easy to do.

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Old 02-01-2009, 10:05 PM
Kim Cascone
 
Default studio backups

> What tools might these be?

well I've only recently delved back into the Windoze battlefield
(after being away since 2001) as I've been given the task of
maintaining my son's new XP laptop

there is a little app (if you dig deep enough) called Backup in XP
it took me all of an hour to find it, grok it and get it backing up
to a 500G USB drive

on the OS X front (which is where I spend most of my time)
there is Time Machine, Disk Utilities, SuperDuper and Carbon Copy
Cloner to name a few

I don't know ONE pro or semi-pro musician who doesn't backup their
main machine as well as their session drives -- mostly they've
learned to do this the hard way
and back up on a daily or weekly basis

I've found that most musicians back up their assets/deliverables to
hard drive and/or burn it to DVD's

> In any case, neither of these helps you if your hard drive dies,
> unless you are
> saving the data to an external source, which requires someone to
> make a
> change to the config, which most people don't do.

I haven't used Time Machine so I can't comment on how that works
but I've had no trouble setting up my son's XP lappy to back up onto
an external drive
it makes no sense to backup to the same disc you are backing up -
besides unless you config this with excludes it sounds like a
recursion nightmare

if someone is backing up to a local drive they should be instructed
to stop doing this immediately
and buy an external USB drive for $50 and back up on that instead

============================================

as for documentation:

I wasn't referring to commercial audio apps here but yes there is
much crap documentation in the commercial neck of the woods

I have a friend who works at Digidesign who (used to) rewrites crap
manuals
when we worked at Headspace he was finishing the Deck manual and had
just started working on the Cubase manual (this is circa 1997)
which if I remember correctly was a train wreck on paper and drove
him crazy

but what I was referring to are all the little Linux apps made by
bedroom coders with poor writing skills
I've worked with tech writers and have a great deal of respect for
what they do
to be fair not everyone has the skills to do this
but developers should let their community add to a living document
online in the form of a WIKI
so that it can gain from the experience of people who use the tool in
a variety of settings
and can document the odd cases where something doesn't work and
provide steps to work through a problem

in any case,
I've tested Clonezilla and this seems to be a good Linux app for
making a clone
one must read through the manual a couple of times in order to parse
the instructions

also, there is Quickstart (I posted this separately) which allows you
to use either tar or partimage for backing up
both Clonezilla and Quickstart have a UI and are fairly easy to use
I've made tars with Quickstart and images with Clonezilla
but have not tested them yet by restoring them
next week I'll get to this

> clone/mirror/backup are different things that are suited to different
> tasks.
one man's clone is another man's backup
peoples needs are complex enough so that these functions intersect to
a varying degree
my own needs have changed -- from running my own company to working
as a film sound editor to working in audio software to being a
professional musician in my home studio
but in all cases my basic need was the same:
to protect my data by making copies of it on other media

and throughout that time I've gone from copying data to floppy discs
to Syquest drives to zip drives to CD to DVD to USB sticks etc etc
so as technology advanced the needs changed and vice versa

these days I work one a single laptop so I tend to work from an
external disc that I've partitioned into backups and sound projects

other musicians have different scenarios that require them to back up
to another machine, across a network or backup certain files to one
place while others go another etc.
many of the commercial tools contain enough of a feature set that
allows people to select a subset of functionality that meets their needs

although I 'clone' my drive each night it serves as my 'backup' -
i.e. if my drive fails I can go to my image and restore it onto a new
drive

in any case, I feel Ubuntu lacks a backup tool (ala Gnome or KDE)
that gives new Linux users an easy reliable way to backup/clone/image/
snapshot/whatever without the pain and frustration of remembering all
the switches for tar, rsnapshot, rsync, dd, dump, partimage or whatever

========================================

another thing I've been researching since my reentry into Linux land:
bootable rescue USB sticks

I plan to make one for ubuntu-rescue or sysresccd later
http://ubuntu-rescue-remix.org/
http://www.sysresccd.org

if and when your machine goes south
its good to have tools that you can boot from to help you
troubleshoot problems
maybe some of the more experienced Linux musicians can share how they
recovered from system and/or hard drive failures in the studio?






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Old 02-02-2009, 02:49 AM
Sean Edwards
 
Default studio backups

If you wan rsync, tar and other Unix type utilities, you can get get the Cygwin environment for Windows:

http://www.cygwin.net/cygwin/



----- Original Message ----

> What tools might these be?




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Old 02-02-2009, 03:04 AM
"Cory K."
 
Default studio backups

Kim Cascone wrote:
> I don't know ONE pro or semi-pro musician who doesn't backup their
> main machine as well as their session drives -- mostly they've
> learned to do this the hard way
> and back up on a daily or weekly basis
>
> I've found that most musicians back up their assets/deliverables to
> hard drive and/or burn it to DVD's

By now, this is all just running around in circles. You should have
enough info to do what you have to do.

I do however want to note that 3 out of 3 professional studio's (places
with massive Neve consoles and the like) I've worked at had RAID going
with their Pro-Tools setups. There was never a backup /app/.

So you have a plethora of options now. I hope you fide one that suits
your particular situation.


-Cory K.

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Old 02-02-2009, 03:18 AM
Chris Wenn
 
Default studio backups

>
> in any case, I feel Ubuntu lacks a backup tool (ala Gnome or KDE)
> that gives new Linux users an easy reliable way to backup/clone/image/
> snapshot/whatever without the pain and frustration of remembering all
> the switches for tar, rsnapshot, rsync, dd, dump, partimage or whatever

Sorry... I've not been following this thread closely, but has anyone
mentioned Simple Backup/Restore (apt-get install sbackup)? I've been
using it for a while now and apart from a few UI quirks its pretty
solid...

Chris


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Old 02-02-2009, 08:02 AM
Gustin Johnson
 
Default studio backups

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Sean Edwards wrote:
> If you wan rsync, tar and other Unix type utilities, you can get get the Cygwin environment for Windows:
>
> http://www.cygwin.net/cygwin/
>
This does not come with windows which was my point.

Having said that, I can't imagine using Windows without cygwin. I use
it at home and on many client machines. I think we have strayed OT now
so that is all I will say.
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Old 02-02-2009, 03:19 PM
Kim Cascone
 
Default studio backups

On Feb 2, 2009, at 4:00 AM, ubuntu-studio-users-request@lists.ubuntu.com wrote:I do however want to note that 3 out of 3 professional studio's (placeswith massive Neve consoles and the like) I've worked at had RAID goingwith their Pro-Tools setups. There was never a backup /app/.
RAID is a backup *strategy* - not a backup app
Redundant Array of Independent Disks (RAID)*is a way that extra data is written across the array, which are organized so that the failure of one (sometimes more) disks in the array will not result in loss of data.A failed disk may be replaced by a new one, and the data on it reconstructed from the remaining data and the extra data.--
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Old 02-02-2009, 03:25 PM
"Cory K."
 
Default studio backups

Kim Cascone wrote:
> On Feb 2, 2009, at 4:00 AM,
> ubuntu-studio-users-request@lists.ubuntu.com wrote:
>> I do however want to note that 3 out of 3 professional studio's (places
>> with massive Neve consoles and the like) I've worked at had RAID going
>> with their Pro-Tools setups. There was never a backup /app/.
>
> RAID is a backup *strategy* - not a backup app

*sigh*

Point is, you're saying pro's use apps for backup, and it just hasn't
been my experience in *any* professional studio.

Man this is beat to death. I'm done.


-Cory K.


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Old 02-02-2009, 03:42 PM
"Jack Bakker"
 
Default studio backups

www.bacula.org

j.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ubuntu-studio-users-bounces@lists.ubuntu.com
> [mailto:ubuntu-studio-users-bounces@lists.ubuntu.com] On
> Behalf Of Cory K.
> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 11:26 AM
> To: Ubuntu Studio Users Help and Discussion
> Subject: Re: studio backups
>
> Kim Cascone wrote:
> > On Feb 2, 2009, at 4:00 AM,
> > ubuntu-studio-users-request@lists.ubuntu.com wrote:
> >> I do however want to note that 3 out of 3 professional studio's
> >> (places with massive Neve consoles and the like) I've
> worked at had
> >> RAID going with their Pro-Tools setups. There was never a backup
> >> /app/.
> >
> > RAID is a backup *strategy* - not a backup app
>
> *sigh*
>
> Point is, you're saying pro's use apps for backup, and it
> just hasn't been my experience in *any* professional studio.
>
> Man this is beat to death. I'm done.
>
>
> -Cory K.
>
>
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