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Old 09-01-2008, 05:24 PM
"Cory K."
 
Default Ubuntu Studio 8.10, -rt and 2.6.27

Hello all. This is going out to a couple of lists so I can get as wide
an opinion as I can. I'll correct any inaccuracies as this discussion
progresses.

Quick intro: I'm Cory K. Lean on Ubuntu Studio. Hi

So here's the pickle we're in as I understand it.

The way the kernels are now managed in Ubuntu has changed radically in
this release. Thus causing our kernel guy *much* more work that ever
before. We've had to work very hard to get upstream -rt to support the
.26 kernel but, now mainline Ubuntu has moved to 2.6.27. Which upstream
-rt doesn't *look* to support yet.

So because of these, and other issues that don't matter to the question
I have we're looking at these options:

* Shipping the -generic kernel with this 8.10 release of Ubuntu
Studio and let people compile their own -rt kernel. With a latter
PPA release of -rt for testing as upstream support happens.
* Ship a out-of-sync 2.6.26-rt kernel, hoping for a Stable Update
Release in Intrepid with .27 later.

Of some combination of those.

Thoughts on what to do? What do users want? (please be mature)

-Cory K.


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Old 09-01-2008, 07:42 PM
"Marc R.J. Brevoort"
 
Default Ubuntu Studio 8.10, -rt and 2.6.27

On Mon, 1 Sep 2008, Cory K. wrote:

> we're looking at these options:
>
> * Shipping the -generic kernel with this 8.10 release of Ubuntu
> Studio and let people compile their own -rt kernel. With a latter
> PPA release of -rt for testing as upstream support happens.
> * Ship a out-of-sync 2.6.26-rt kernel, hoping for a Stable Update
> Release in Intrepid with .27 later.

For me, the great thing about UbuntuStudio is that things work out of the
box: I don't *have* to compile a kernel to get proper realtime support.

Over the years, I've closely followed the progress in Linux Audio land
and have compiled lots of kernels, but am very glad that I rarely
have to anymore (if ever). If the realtime kernel lags a version behind,
so be it- If I really need the latest bleeding edge functionality *now*,
I can always decide to compile my own anyway, but I'm more likely to
simply wait until it appears and be OK with it. So from my
point of view, an out-of-sync RT kernel would be fine. But as different
people have different needs, let's hear what others have to say.

Best,
Marc

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Old 09-01-2008, 07:53 PM
Hartmut Noack
 
Default Ubuntu Studio 8.10, -rt and 2.6.27

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Hash: SHA1

Cory K. schrieb:

> * Shipping the -generic kernel with this 8.10 release of Ubuntu
> Studio and let people compile their own -rt kernel.

This could be done in any Distro so there would not be a real
Ubuntustudio anymore. The major strength of UBuntustudio is its
near-perfect integration of a audiosystem with a friendly desktop-distro.
I can run VMWare and NVIDIA-Drivers easily with the UBuntu rt kernel
would be a major p.i.t.a. do make stuff like that run with a self made
kernel.


> * Ship a out-of-sync 2.6.26-rt kernel, hoping for a Stable Update
> Release in Intrepid with .27 later.

This would be perfectly acceptable for me :-)


best regs
HZN

BTW: what is so extremely important in .27? new hardwaresupport not
achievable with .26?
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Old 09-01-2008, 07:56 PM
"Cory K."
 
Default Ubuntu Studio 8.10, -rt and 2.6.27

Marc R.J. Brevoort wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Sep 2008, Cory K. wrote:
>
>
>> we're looking at these options:
>>
>> * Shipping the -generic kernel with this 8.10 release of Ubuntu
>> Studio and let people compile their own -rt kernel. With a latter
>> PPA release of -rt for testing as upstream support happens.
>> * Ship a out-of-sync 2.6.26-rt kernel, hoping for a Stable Update
>> Release in Intrepid with .27 later.
>>
>
> For me, the great thing about UbuntuStudio is that things work out of the
> box: I don't *have* to compile a kernel to get proper realtime support.
>
> Over the years, I've closely followed the progress in Linux Audio land
> and have compiled lots of kernels, but am very glad that I rarely
> have to anymore (if ever). If the realtime kernel lags a version behind,
> so be it- If I really need the latest bleeding edge functionality *now*,
> I can always decide to compile my own anyway, but I'm more likely to
> simply wait until it appears and be OK with it. So from my
> point of view, an out-of-sync RT kernel would be fine. But as different
> people have different needs, let's hear what others have to say.
>
> Best,
> Marc
>

One of the big things will be device support as the new kernel brings
better support. Along with very much improved (or so I'm told)
suspend/resume support.

While this shipping an "out-of-sync" kernel looks like the best option,
it also have it's major drawbacks. So while you might have an -rt
kernel, you might have bad performance from the devices you need the
kernel for.

Make no mistake. This is a major issue that *could* make us skip a
release. In the end, it might be the way to go rather than ship a
release we're not proud of.

-Cory K.

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Old 09-01-2008, 08:03 PM
"Cory K."
 
Default Ubuntu Studio 8.10, -rt and 2.6.27

Hartmut Noack wrote:
> Cory K. schrieb:
>
> > * Shipping the -generic kernel with this 8.10 release of Ubuntu
> > Studio and let people compile their own -rt kernel.
>
> This could be done in any Distro so there would not be a real
> Ubuntustudio anymore.

I don't agree completely since our focus is not *just* audio, though we
know that's our biggest user segment.

> The major strength of UBuntustudio is its
> near-perfect integration of a audiosystem with a friendly desktop-distro.
> I can run VMWare and NVIDIA-Drivers easily with the UBuntu rt kernel
> would be a major p.i.t.a. do make stuff like that run with a self made
> kernel.

These could also be the very things you lose.

> > * Ship a out-of-sync 2.6.26-rt kernel, hoping for a Stable Update
> > Release in Intrepid with .27 later.
>
> This would be perfectly acceptable for me :-)
>
>
> best regs
> HZN
>
> BTW: what is so extremely important in .27? new hardwaresupport not
> achievable with .26?

Much better suspend/resume support along with many bug-fixes and device
support.

-Cory K.

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Old 09-01-2008, 09:08 PM
 
Default Ubuntu Studio 8.10, -rt and 2.6.27

On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 15:56:30 -0400
"Cory K." <coryisatm@ubuntu.com> wrote:

...

> One of the big things will be device support as the new kernel brings
> better support. Along with very much improved (or so I'm told)
> suspend/resume support.
>
> While this shipping an "out-of-sync" kernel looks like the best
> option, it also have it's major drawbacks. So while you might have an
> -rt kernel, you might have bad performance from the devices you need
> the kernel for.
>
> Make no mistake. This is a major issue that *could* make us skip a
> release. In the end, it might be the way to go rather than ship a
> release we're not proud of.
>
> -Cory K.

Wouldn't the out-of-sync kernel also mean security issues?
I'm pretty sure that quite some people use ubuntu studio as general
purpose system as well, so that would be an issue.

How about: shipping -generic until there is a .27-rt and
provide the out-of-sync kernel as option in a ppa.
It would be great if the .27-rt would be able to automagically replace
the ppa version.

I haven't tested those kernels yet, and while it is said that more and
more rt-stuff goes into the generic kernel word is out that .26 is
pretty bad for audio and midi.
It would be good to hear some hands-on experience from people who
already test intrepid.

Best Regards,
Philipp

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Old 09-01-2008, 09:28 PM
"Cory K."
 
Default Ubuntu Studio 8.10, -rt and 2.6.27

hollunder@gmx.at wrote:
> Wouldn't the out-of-sync kernel also mean security issues?
>

Yes.

> I'm pretty sure that quite some people use ubuntu studio as general
> purpose system as well, so that would be an issue.
>

While we don't necessarily create Studio with this in mind, we know most
do.

> How about: shipping -generic until there is a .27-rt and
> provide the out-of-sync kernel as option in a ppa.
> It would be great if the .27-rt would be able to automagically replace
> the ppa version.
>

This is an idea yes. But, a user would have to manually add the PPA
after their upgrade to Intrepid. The Hardy->Intrepid upgrade would
require a little more manual intervention than normal. And no matter how
well the instructions were, people will complain.

This is all certainly doable, we're just gonna get alot of crap. Sux
when we're all volunteers.

> I haven't tested those kernels yet, and while it is said that more and
> more rt-stuff goes into the generic kernel word is out that .26 is
> pretty bad for audio and midi.
>

Yep. As stated by Paul D. on another list.

> It would be good to hear some hands-on experience from people who
> already test intrepid.
>

Agreed.

-Cory K.


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Old 09-01-2008, 10:51 PM
 
Default Ubuntu Studio 8.10, -rt and 2.6.27

On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 17:28:34 -0400
"Cory K." <coryisatm@ubuntu.com> wrote:

...

> > How about: shipping -generic until there is a .27-rt and
> > provide the out-of-sync kernel as option in a ppa.
> > It would be great if the .27-rt would be able to automagically
> > replace the ppa version.
> >
>
> This is an idea yes. But, a user would have to manually add the PPA
> after their upgrade to Intrepid. The Hardy->Intrepid upgrade would
> require a little more manual intervention than normal. And no matter
> how well the instructions were, people will complain.
>
> This is all certainly doable, we're just gonna get alot of crap. Sux
> when we're all volunteers.


AFAIR upgrading was always problematic, same converting plain Ubuntu to
Ubuntu Studio, so nothing really new here.

What should IMHO be new this time are the instructions.
First and foremost they should be placed prominently at the website and
thus really easy to find, something that wasn't the case until now.
There were some people interested in the website, it shouldn't be too
hard to present the instructions for those two (three?) very common
cases in an adequate manner.

The other very common channel is IRC. There are people who don't see
the channel topic, so it might also be time to have ChanServ (?) write
a message on entry.

I'm not around the forums so I don't really know what's adequate there,
maybe something like a sticky topic?

I know that this won't take all the crap but it should take some.



> > I haven't tested those kernels yet, and while it is said that more
> > and more rt-stuff goes into the generic kernel word is out that .26
> > is pretty bad for audio and midi.
> >
>
> Yep. As stated by Paul D. on another list.
>
> > It would be good to hear some hands-on experience from people who
> > already test intrepid.
> >
>
> Agreed.
>
> -Cory K.


Can you tell us how usable it already is? To my knowledge there's
Alpha4 right now, Alpha5 should come on September 4.
My real install will likely be from the Ubuntu mini.iso but I might do
an install from DVD for test purposes once it's close enough to the real
thing.

I hope the whole thing shapes up somehow.
Best Regards,
Philipp

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Old 09-02-2008, 04:43 AM
"Eric Hedekar"
 
Default Ubuntu Studio 8.10, -rt and 2.6.27

On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Cory K. <coryisatm@ubuntu.com> wrote:

<snip>

Make no mistake. This is a major issue that *could* make us skip a

release. In the end, it might be the way to go rather than ship a

release we're not proud of.



My first reaction to reading this conversation is that releasing software packages with major functionality issues (no realtime audio support is a major functionality issue for a large portion of your userbase) is a big no no.


I'd say for now, plan to not release, but get your workload schedules perfect for Jazzy Jackalope (9.04) - and make it worth the wait.
Also, look into working on an intrepid-like metapackage update for hardy (call it ubuntustudio-8.04.2).* I don't know how feasable this strategy might be, but it's what popped into my head.


I think using a generic .27 kernel until a -rt version is released would only be acceptable if a guaranteed update date for the -rt could be publicized before the release of intrepid (I'm aware of how impossible this is).* Once again, this is just my opinion on the matter.


Using a .26 kernel scares me.

My experience with UbuntuStudio Intrepid so far has been fairly brief, as it's apparent my ati graphics card doesn't like the ati drivers in Intrepid repositories (one of the first tweaks to the system I attempted was to get compiz-fusion up).* I haven't had time to fix the graphics yet, so I can't say much for the audio (just yet).


-Eric Hedekar

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Old 09-02-2008, 05:26 AM
"Emmet Hikory"
 
Default Ubuntu Studio 8.10, -rt and 2.6.27

Eric Hedekar wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Cory K. wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>> Make no mistake. This is a major issue that *could* make us skip a
>> release. In the end, it might be the way to go rather than ship a
>> release we're not proud of.
>
>
> My first reaction to reading this conversation is that releasing software
> packages with major functionality issues (no realtime audio support is a
> major functionality issue for a large portion of your userbase) is a big no
> no.
>
> I'd say for now, plan to not release, but get your workload schedules
> perfect for Jazzy Jackalope (9.04) - and make it worth the wait.
> Also, look into working on an intrepid-like metapackage update for hardy
> (call it ubuntustudio-8.04.2). I don't know how feasable this strategy
> might be, but it's what popped into my head.

I'm not sure it's best to skip a release just because it has a
regression for some subset of users. If those users are happy using
the current release, they need not upgrade, but those users (yes,
perhaps a minority) for whom this feature is less important (e.g.
graphic artists) may prefer to have an updated release.

Additionally, while there is a certain expectation of releasing
8.04.2, including many bugfixes and security updates to 8.04.1, such a
release will contain only these fixes, and not include newer
applications, etc. The creation of an "intrepid-like" metapackage
within 8.04 is infeasible, as any 8.04.x release is inherently bound
to the same repositories as used for other Ubuntu flavours.

That said, as a user of audio applications, it is my hope that a
solution can be found that will allow the released 8.10 to meet my
needs. While I do require the audio system to work reliably, and at
relatively low and predictable latency, I have not performed
sufficient testing to know if realtime is required for my specific
workload: it may be that other schedulers are sufficient.

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Emmet HIKORY

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