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Old 05-04-2008, 07:58 PM
Leandro Pereira de Lima e Silva
 
Default Ubuntu Server graphical interface?

Serge,

There is some discussion around a Ubuntu Small Business Server in Ubuntu
brainstorm.

I agree with the idea of building a framework to deal with these
problems. I think it's the first step into simplifying stuff.

Cheers, Leandro.

Em Dom, 2008-05-04 ąs 21:44 +0200, Serge van Ginderachter escreveu:
> Hi folks,
>
>
> My 2 cents along the line.
>
>
> I'm picking into this discussion, and spit out some different thought on the matter, to broaden the subject.
> Some of these thought might be off-topic for this thread, but I'm pretty confident they are very on topic on this list.
>
> I'm looking at this, as a former 100% MS shop engineer, having worked for different small businesses, and with the needs to quickly setup an environment for small workgroups. And with 'small' I mean lots of workgroups strating from a coouple of users up to somewhere between 15 or 30 users. The needs are comparable to what one needs for say 75 users, but the budget is very different. That's where a product like Microsoft Small Business Server rules most networks. Technically, it sucks, but for basic stuff, it hgets the job done.
>
>
> ----- "Martin Hess" <martinhess@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > Serge has pointed out what should probably be a 5th requirement.
> > * Easy to use
> > No point in having a GUI that is difficult to use. Windows is full of
> > examples of such GUIs and gave GUIs a bad name. Additionally, if the
> > tool makes it possible to manage a set of machines at the expense of
> > managing 1 machine easily then it has failed the ease of use test.
>
> When I'm making an assessment of what is needed, I distinct two big things:
>
> 1. some gui for *basic* day to day configuration, the kind of stuff a power user @customer needs to manage himself
> - first en foremost, user management, including central and single authentication, and ideally linked to other things that are important to a user:
> * email address and mailbox management
> * managing access to network resources, and managing the desktop environment so the user easily connects to them (eg. shared network drives)
> - managing updates
> - managing ip addresses, dns, dhcp, ...
> - managing shared printers
> 2. easy setup and management for all hosts belonging to a network
> I can't hold myself to compare to the Microsoft "domain" model, where lots of basic stuff is easily centrally managed
>
> > Here is the requirements list so far:
> >
> > 1) Optional - must not be required for Ubuntu Server
> > 2) Secure - must not have known security issues, must have good known
> > security architecture
> > 3) Scalable - must be able to administer sets of machines
> > 4) Open Source
> > 5) Easy to use - for 1 or more machines
> >
> > Are there any packages that can meet such requirements?
>
> Not AFAIK.
>
> - ebox is a starter, but only manages a local pc, not a network domain
> - landscape does some basic stuff, also, but is way to basic imho. and it doesnt handle central authentication. and it's not free software
> read up on http://www.vanginderachter.be/2008/canonical-landscape-for-ubuntu/ for more of my thoughts on this;
>
> Some other thoughts:
>
> * What we really need is a framework for this. Make a good framework, and GUI stuff will follow. Making some GUIS to solve all problems without being able to operate by CLI is not the way to go.
> * one of the lead projects to take into acount, imho, is Samba 4, which would be the Active Directory tool on open SOurce. Samba is becoming more and more the de facto standard for a lot of stuff, and might be the project to pick to further standardize on.
> * eg. LDAP is a standard, but there is no standard address book scheme, which all mail clients adhere to.
> * there ain't something as a standard Samba implementation
>
> As Martin noted, it's about ease of use. All of this stuff already exists. But there just isn't a standardized way to implement it. It's pretty stupid for having to reinvent the wheel for each small customer.
>
> I'm looking forward on other people's thoughts on all of this and more.
>
>
>
> Serge
>
> Serge van Ginderachter http://www.vanginderachter.be/
>
> Kreeg u een "odt" bestand en kan u deze niet openen? Zie http://ginsys.be/odf
>


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Old 05-04-2008, 08:31 PM
"Jonathan Jesse"
 
Default Ubuntu Server graphical interface?

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Serge van Ginderachter <serge@vanginderachter.be> wrote:


Hi folks,


My 2 cents along the line.


I'm picking into this discussion, and spit out some different thought on the matter, to broaden the subject.

Some of these thought might be off-topic for this thread, but I'm pretty confident they are very on topic on this list.

I'm looking at this, as a former 100% MS shop engineer, having worked for different small businesses, and with the needs to quickly setup an environment for small workgroups. And with 'small' I mean lots of workgroups strating from a coouple of users up to somewhere between 15 or 30 users. The needs are comparable to what one needs for say 75 users, but the budget is very different. That's where a product like Microsoft Small Business Server rules most networks. Technically, it sucks, but for basic stuff, it hgets the job done.




----- "Martin Hess" <martinhess@mac.com> wrote:

> Serge has pointed out what should probably be a 5th requirement.
> * Easy to use

> No point in having a GUI that is difficult to use. Windows is full of
> examples of such GUIs and gave GUIs a bad name. Additionally, if the
> tool makes it possible to manage a set of machines at the expense of

> managing 1 machine easily then it has failed the ease of use test.

When I'm making an assessment of what is needed, I distinct two big things:

1. some gui for *basic* day to day configuration, the kind of stuff a power user @customer needs to manage himself

*- first en foremost, user management, including central and single authentication, and ideally linked to other things that are important to a user:
* ** email address and mailbox management
* ** managing access to network resources, and managing the desktop environment so the user easily connects to them (eg. shared network drives)

*- managing updates
*- managing ip addresses, dns, dhcp, ...
*- managing shared printers
2. easy setup and management for all hosts belonging to a network
*I can't hold myself to compare to the Microsoft "domain" model, where lots of basic stuff is easily centrally managed


> Here is the requirements list so far:

>
> 1) Optional - must not be required for Ubuntu Server
> 2) Secure - must not have known security issues, must have good known
> security architecture
> 3) Scalable - must be able to administer sets of machines

> 4) Open Source

> 5) Easy to use - for 1 or more machines
>
> Are there any packages that can meet such requirements?

Not AFAIK.

*- ebox is a starter, but only manages a local pc, not a network domain

*- landscape does some basic stuff, also, but is way to basic imho. and it doesnt handle central authentication. and it's not free software
* *read up on http://www.vanginderachter.be/2008/canonical-landscape-for-ubuntu/ for more of my thoughts on this;


Some other thoughts:

* What we really need is a framework for this. Make a good framework, and GUI stuff will follow. Making some GUIS to solve all problems without being able to operate by CLI is not the way to go.

* one of the lead projects to take into acount, imho, is Samba 4, which would be the Active Directory tool on open SOurce. Samba is becoming more and more the de facto standard for a lot of stuff, and might be the project to pick to further standardize on.

* eg. LDAP is a standard, but there is no standard address book scheme, which all mail clients adhere to.
* there ain't something as a standard Samba implementation

As Martin noted, it's about ease of use. All of this stuff already exists. But there just isn't a standardized way to implement it. It's pretty stupid for having to reinvent the wheel for each small customer.


I'm looking forward on other people's thoughts on all of this and more.




* * * *Serge

*Serge van Ginderachter * * * * *http://www.vanginderachter.be/

*Kreeg u een "odt" bestand en kan u deze niet openen? Zie http://ginsys.be/odf


--



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The "GUI" should be web based. And the framework needs to store information in an open database, that is a databse that can be accessed, plugged into and added to
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Old 05-04-2008, 08:43 PM
Serge van Ginderachter
 
Default Ubuntu Server graphical interface?

> The "GUI" should be web based. And the framework needs to store

It should at least not be some X app. As fart as I'm concerned, it could even be some curses console app.
Or such a curses app could be one of the front ends.

> information in an open database, that is a databse that can be
> accessed, plugged into and added to

It very much depends on which kind of data you are referring to.
A lot of the configuration data already is stored somewhere (/etc).
Some databases already are readily available (ldap?)

My point, be carefull not tu build the n-th new database backend.

At first sight, I would be inclined to have a look at what can be stored in the Samba 4 ldap backend.

Tools just would need to
- interface with that ldap backend, for easy maintenance
- services connect to that ldap backend to implement the settings (think something like landscape client?)




Serge

Serge van Ginderachter http://www.vanginderachter.be/

Kreeg u een "odt" bestand en kan u deze niet openen? Zie http://ginsys.be/odf



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Old 05-04-2008, 10:02 PM
"Jonathan Jesse"
 
Default Ubuntu Server graphical interface?

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 4:43 PM, Serge van Ginderachter <serge@vanginderachter.be> wrote:


> The "GUI" should be web based. And the framework needs to store

It should at least not be some X app. As fart as I'm concerned, it could even be some curses console app.

Or such a curses app could be one of the front ends.


> information in an open database, that is a databse that can be
> accessed, plugged into and added to

It very much depends on which kind of data you are referring to.
A lot of the configuration data already is stored somewhere (/etc).

Some databases already are readily available (ldap?)

My point, be carefull not tu build the n-th new database backend.

At first sight, I would be inclined to have a look at what can be stored in the Samba 4 ldap backend.


Tools just would need to
- interface with that ldap backend, for easy maintenance
- services connect to that ldap backend to implement the settings (think something like landscape client?)







* * * *Serge

*Serge van Ginderachter * * * * *http://www.vanginderachter.be/

*Kreeg u een "odt" bestand en kan u deze niet openen? Zie http://ginsys.be/odf




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More info: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam

*
If we are going to continue to build around Samaba v4, can we get the data out easily?* That's the point of the database.* Reporting across one or more computers/servers
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Old 05-11-2008, 07:18 PM
Neal McBurnett
 
Default Ubuntu Server graphical interface?

On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 10:43:46PM +0200, Serge van Ginderachter wrote:
> > The "GUI" should be web based. And the framework needs to store
> > information in an open database, that is a databse that can be
> > accessed, plugged into and added to

> It very much depends on which kind of data you are referring to.
> A lot of the configuration data already is stored somewhere (/etc).
> Some databases already are readily available (ldap?)
>
> My point, be carefull not tu build the n-th new database backend.

How well would this data fit into eBox?

> At first sight, I would be inclined to have a look at what can be stored in the Samba 4 ldap backend.
>
> Tools just would need to
> - interface with that ldap backend, for easy maintenance
> - services connect to that ldap backend to implement the settings (think something like landscape client?)

Good point. I wonder if the specs for the protocol that landscape
client uses have been published anywhere? Or they could be
reverse-engineered from the open source code, I guess.

Would it make sense to grow eBox into an enterprise management system
by linking it up with that client?

Or what other building block could it be based on?

Cheers

Neal McBurnett http://mcburnett.org/neal/

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Old 05-11-2008, 09:18 PM
Serge van Ginderachter
 
Default Ubuntu Server graphical interface?

----- "Neal McBurnett" <neal@bcn.boulder.co.us> wrote:

> > It very much depends on which kind of data you are referring to.
> > A lot of the configuration data already is stored somewhere (/etc).
> > Some databases already are readily available (ldap?)
> >
> > My point, be carefull not tu build the n-th new database backend.

> How well would this data fit into eBox?

> > At first sight, I would be inclined to have a look at what can be
> stored in the Samba 4 ldap backend.
> >
> > Tools just would need to
> > - interface with that ldap backend, for easy maintenance
> > - services connect to that ldap backend to implement the settings
> (think something like landscape client?)

> Good point. I wonder if the specs for the protocol that landscape
> client uses have been published anywhere? Or they could be
> reverse-engineered from the open source code, I guess.

AFAIK, they aren't, or I would be (pleasantly) surprised if they were.

> Would it make sense to grow eBox into an enterprise management system
> by linking it up with that client?
>
> Or what other building block could it be based on?

To be honest, I don't know. As as system engineer, I'm reallylooking at this problem from a user perspective as I don't have any knowledge on a development level.

Serge

Serge van Ginderachter http://www.vanginderachter.be/

Kreeg u een "odt" bestand en kan u deze niet openen? Zie http://ginsys.be/odf

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