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Old 02-16-2012, 02:42 AM
Colin Charles
 
Default MySQL's future in Debian and Ubuntu

Hi!

On 16 Feb 2012, at 07:57, Henrik Ingo wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 2:28 PM, Fabio T. Leitao
> <fabio.tleitao@gmail.com> wrote:
>> For those who have not followed this up closely, a little history.
>>
>> Remember that MariaDB is not just "compatible" with MySQL, but it kind of IS
>> MySQL, forked and re-branded.
>>
>> In 2009, even before Oracle has purchased Sun, Monty Widenius (one of the
>> original creators of MySQL and architects) has left the Sun (than the owner
>> of MySQL) and started MariaDB, intended as a replacement for the full MySQL
>> server.
>>
>> It seems that since that, most of the MySQL developers left and joined
>> either Drizzle or MariaDB. Drizzle is another fork, but was targeted to a
>> “limited but important market”, created by Brian Aker almost the same time
>> when MySQL was bought by Sun (back in 2008)
>>
>
> Hi Fabio
>
> You contributed a fairly good history, so it inspired me to fill in
> missing pieces.
>
> There is also a fourth MySQL fork: Percona Server. It is interesting
> to note people in this thread and in general the Linux distro people
> seem to omit this when talking about MySQL forks. As far as I'm aware
> it is the most popular of the forks (after MySQL itself), and used by
> many demanding Percona customers, especially the big and sexy Web
> companies (but not only).

I don't think this is a fair statement as MariaDB also has many popular users out there. Let's not make this a popularity contest either

> Out of these four it should first be mentioned that Drizzle is not at
> all a compatible fork of MySQL. Some would say the things that are not
> compatible are enhancements :-) But nevertheless, while Drizzle feels
> very familiar to a MySQL user, you couldn't take away MySQL, drop in
> Drizzle and expect that nobody would notice.

Nobody? WordPress users for example, might (see: https://launchpad.net/wordpress-drizzle a plugin that you will require). I think there's a Drupal patch that's almost quite ready also...

> Personally I think the main benefit of Percona Server is that they
> have a 5.5 version out there for some time - exactly a year ago it
> seems! While MariaDB has focused more on their own work (and perhaps
> also therefore the merge effort for them is much larger) they haven't
> yet produced a 5.5 release (even alpha). This should be taken into
> account, since many MySQL users already use MySQL 5.5 and features
> like semi-sync replication, they would consider MariaDB a downgrade.

MariaDB 5.5 beta should be out by the end of this month. It will not be GA in time for the LTS release, but it will be out soon (its worth noting that all these discussions is what has put the team to work on milestones in a quicker fashion). It will also include all enhancements up to MariaDB 5.3 naturally, so you get all the improvements that come with it

What should also be taken into consideration is support for an existing GA release. I've asked Percona (Stewart Smith, Director, Server Development) what the plans are and generally Percona will officially support 2 GA releases just like Oracle. Unless a customer asks for it, there wouldn't be a fix. LTS releases might I remind you need 5 years of support. Percona Server 5.1 will remain supported till Percona Server 5.6 is released, and beyond that, its just a customer request possibly. There is no defined policy yet to be fair

> The other strong advantage Percona has at the moment is their recent
> adoption of Galera clustering technology (see Percona XtraDB Cluster).
> This is a revolutionary technology when it comes to High-Availability
> with MySQL and even scalability of MySQL. In fact it has many of the
> good properties seen in many NoSQL solutions (but is still good old
> SQL, Galera is just about the clustering). I'm personally a big fan of
> Galera and don't intend to use anything else going forward.

This alpha feature is very interesting, but the idea of having a 3-node cluster pitches this as a NDB replacement rather than just a MySQL replacement. But as an aside, I do agree with you - I am totally stoked with the Galera technology coming out of Codership!

cheers,
-c
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Old 02-16-2012, 06:33 AM
Bjoern Boschman
 
Default MySQL's future in Debian and Ubuntu

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Hi,

On 16.02.2012 00:57, Henrik Ingo wrote:
> Percona Server is like MariaDB in that both of them are compatible
> with MySQL and you could do a plug-and-play replacement. Percona
> Server is much closer to MySQL (which many think is great), shall
> I say more focused. MariaDB has more deviation in the code base and
> also adds more stuff like additional storage engines (which many
> think is great, especially when you want to play with new
> features).

The additional storage engine also applies to percona :-)


B
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Old 02-16-2012, 06:37 AM
Henrik Ingo
 
Default MySQL's future in Debian and Ubuntu

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Colin Charles <colin@montyprogram.com> wrote:
>> There is also a fourth MySQL fork: Percona Server. It is interesting
>> to note people in this thread and in general the Linux distro people
>> seem to omit this when talking about MySQL forks. As far as I'm aware
>> it is the most popular of the forks (after MySQL itself), and used by
>> many demanding Percona customers, especially the big and sexy Web
>> companies (but not only).
>
> I don't think this is a fair statement as MariaDB also has many popular users out there. Let's not make this a popularity contest either
>

I don't know how you mean it would be unfair, I think it is factually
true and relevant statement. It just seemed odd to read 20+ messages
about MySQL forks and people seemed to not be aware of the one that
most people used. I know MariaDB has lots of users (too), but if you
look at something like Planet MySQL, it seems the mindshare (people
who blog about it) is mainly within Monty Program and SkySQL employees
- and perhaps me as a former employee mentioning it occasionally :-)

This is not supposed to be an argument against using MariaDB, just
that the discussion seemed a bit uninformed when considering the
whole. FWIW I think most of the positive attributes of MariaDB have
been well represented in the thread already.

>> Out of these four it should first be mentioned that Drizzle is not at
>> all a compatible fork of MySQL. Some would say the things that are not
>> compatible are enhancements :-) But nevertheless, while Drizzle feels
>> very familiar to a MySQL user, you couldn't take away MySQL, drop in
>> Drizzle and expect that nobody would notice.
>
> Nobody? WordPress users for example, might (see: https://launchpad.net/wordpress-drizzle a plugin that you will require). I think there's a Drupal patch that's almost quite ready also...
>

It seems like you omitted "couldn't" while reading? But yes, that's
exactly the point.

> MariaDB 5.5 beta should be out by the end of this month.

Yes, but that was also said last Summer. Let's just stick with what we
have on the table.

> What should also be taken into consideration is support for an existing GA release. I've asked Percona (Stewart Smith, Director, Server Development) what the plans are and generally Percona will officially support 2 GA releases just like Oracle. Unless a customer asks for it, there wouldn't be a fix. LTS releases might I remind you need 5 years of support. *Percona Server 5.1 will remain supported till Percona Server 5.6 is released, and beyond that, its just a customer request possibly. There is no defined policy yet to be fair
>

[needs citation]

http://www.mysql.com/support/
Maintenance Releases, Bug Fixes, Patches, Updates: 1-5 Years and 6-8
Years w Extended support

So it is 5 years just like it's always been (since MySQL 5.0 at least).

Just like with the original topic of this thread, Oracle does not
state anything about the Community version, but I don't have any
information that they would have started dropping support earlier for
that. Until Oracle took over Community version was supported for the
same 5 years, and since MySQL 5.1 the support is actually better since
there are more frequent updates!


> This alpha feature is very interesting, but the idea of having a 3-node cluster pitches this as a NDB replacement rather than just a MySQL replacement.

This is only true if you think the NDB engine is a good replacement
for InnoDB. We always had to work hard to advocate against such
misconceptions when I was selling NDB. But it is true that the quality
of HA properties is comparable to NDB cluster.

To stay consistent with my own propositions above, I suppose I
shouldn't say that "I'm sure it will be GA next month" :-)

>But as an aside, I do agree with you - I am totally stoked with the Galera technology coming out of Codership!
>

Yes. And the main value is that it enhances the level of HA *for
InnoDB*. Anyway, it was just another example why Percona should be
considered, as they are often seen driving the state of the art in
MySQL, such as with this example.

henrik

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Old 02-16-2012, 06:40 AM
Henrik Ingo
 
Default MySQL's future in Debian and Ubuntu

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Bjoern Boschman <bjoern@boschman.de> wrote:
> On 16.02.2012 00:57, Henrik Ingo wrote:
>> Percona Server is like MariaDB in that both of them are compatible
>> with MySQL and you could do a plug-and-play replacement. Percona
>> Server is much closer to MySQL (which many think is great), shall
>> I say more focused. MariaDB has more deviation in the code base and
>> also adds more stuff like additional storage engines (which many
>> think is great, especially when you want to play with new
>> features).
>
> The additional storage engine also applies to percona :-)


Ok, fair point, but MariaDB really goes out of its way to have lots of
them: PBXT, OQGraph engine, Sphinx, Aria... You won't find these
(unless you contract Percona to provide them for you) in Percona
Server. These are not that commonly used but more niche. But they are
the reason I commonly label MariaDB as "has more stuff".


henrik

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Old 02-16-2012, 07:54 AM
Bjoern Boschman
 
Default MySQL's future in Debian and Ubuntu

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Hi,

On 16.02.2012 08:40, Henrik Ingo wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Bjoern Boschman
> <bjoern@boschman.de> wrote:
>> On 16.02.2012 00:57, Henrik Ingo wrote:
>>> Percona Server is like MariaDB in that both of them are
>>> compatible with MySQL and you could do a plug-and-play
>>> replacement. Percona Server is much closer to MySQL (which many
>>> think is great), shall I say more focused. MariaDB has more
>>> deviation in the code base and also adds more stuff like
>>> additional storage engines (which many think is great,
>>> especially when you want to play with new features).
>>
>> The additional storage engine also applies to percona :-)
>
>
> Ok, fair point, but MariaDB really goes out of its way to have lots
> of them: PBXT, OQGraph engine, Sphinx, Aria... You won't find
> these (unless you contract Percona to provide them for you) in
> Percona Server. These are not that commonly used but more niche.
> But they are the reason I commonly label MariaDB as "has more
> stuff".

More features even though they only apply to niche user are in general
nothing bad.
Some features like microsecond datetime is really something I'm gonna
have a look at :-)

But I don't really get the point of MariaDB grants 5 year GA support
vs. Percona grants only 2 years. I'd guess that for > 90% of all
available packages within the Debian project no assured support exists
at all?

B
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Old 02-16-2012, 07:55 AM
Walter Heck
 
Default MySQL's future in Debian and Ubuntu

I think it would be fair to take into account both the things Colin
and Stewart have said as many of them are correct, but their words
should also be taken with a grain of salt as they work for the
companies that would benefit heavily from having 'their' fork be the
replacement of mysql. That's not to accuse them of anything, just to
keep in mind when making a decision. The fork that 'wins' this
decision might well be the more succesful one in the long run simply
because of being the default mysql version in two of the most widely
used linux distributions.

Personally I don't know which fork I'd appreciate more. At this point
here's where we stand with both forks imho (feel free to correct me
when I say something stupid/incorrect ):

Percona server's direction is heavily influenced by the commercial
value for Percona. They implement new features when customers pay for
them, and their development seems to be driven by that largely. The
community benefits from the 'fallout' of those features being released
as open source. The largest benefit is a release cycle that seems a
bit more regular then mariadb's.

As for MariaDB, I like their much more community driven development
that seems less commercially driven, but the main disadvantage is
their release cycle: the oldest commits from the 5.3 changelog stem
from 2009 (!), and the 5.3.0 beta was released in July of last year
[1]. Then again, guaranteed support for 5 years is a good thing.

At this point I think MariaDB would probably be a better match for
being in the main ubuntu/debian distro's as their whole ecosystem
seems to match better.

Let it be clear that I have no commercial benefits from either one
over the other, just voicing my opinion.

cheers,

Walter

[1] http://kb.askmonty.org/en/mariadb-530-changelog-p6

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 09:40, Henrik Ingo <henrik.ingo@avoinelama.fi> wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Bjoern Boschman <bjoern@boschman.de> wrote:
>> On 16.02.2012 00:57, Henrik Ingo wrote:
>>> Percona Server is like MariaDB in that both of them are compatible
>>> with MySQL and you could do a plug-and-play replacement. Percona
>>> Server is much closer to MySQL (which many think is great), shall
>>> I say more focused. MariaDB has more deviation in the code base and
>>> also adds more stuff like additional storage engines (which many
>>> think is great, especially when you want to play with new
>>> features).
>>
>> The additional storage engine also applies to percona :-)
>
>
> Ok, fair point, but MariaDB really goes out of its way to have lots of
> them: PBXT, OQGraph engine, Sphinx, Aria... *You won't find these
> (unless you contract Percona to provide them for you) in Percona
> Server. These are not that commonly used but more niche. But they are
> the reason I commonly label MariaDB as "has more stuff".
>
>
> henrik
>
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>
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Old 02-16-2012, 08:00 AM
Bjoern Boschman
 
Default MySQL's future in Debian and Ubuntu

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On 16.02.2012 09:55, Walter Heck wrote:
> I think it would be fair to take into account both the things
> Colin and Stewart have said as many of them are correct, but their
> words should also be taken with a grain of salt as they work for
> the companies that would benefit heavily from having 'their' fork
> be the replacement of mysql. That's not to accuse them of anything,
> just to keep in mind when making a decision. The fork that 'wins'
> this decision might well be the more succesful one in the long run
> simply because of being the default mysql version in two of the
> most widely used linux distributions.

well spoken.

At some point I also guess that "our" descission may even influence
the other two major's: SuSE and DeadRed?


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Old 02-16-2012, 08:24 AM
Henrik Ingo
 
Default MySQL's future in Debian and Ubuntu

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 10:54 AM, Bjoern Boschman <bjoern@boschman.de> wrote:
> More features even though they only apply to niche user are in general
> nothing bad.

Many DBAs tend to be very conservative and like a less is more
approach, but personally I agree with you. I wish there was fork with
everything: all the features from MariaDB *and* MySQL 5.5. And
Percona, they still have some unique stuff beyond those two, like
Galera.

> But I don't really get the point of MariaDB grants 5 year GA support
> vs. Percona grants only 2 years. I'd guess that for > 90% of all
> available packages within the Debian project no assured support exists
> at all?

Clearly I was unclear in my previous email. The 2 year support is not
true for any of the alternatives. MySQL gives 5 years (and more for
customers that pay), Percona trails MySQL so they also end up doing 5
years (and more for paying customers). MariaDB also does 5,
apparently.

So the original statement of 2 years was just not correct.

Why this is important is a good question, however it seems the origin
of this discussion comes from the fact that Ubuntu indeed wants to
support their product, coupled with a feeling that the relationship
with Oracle MySQL makes that goal hard to achieve.

henrik
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Old 02-16-2012, 10:57 AM
Henrik Ingo
 
Default MySQL's future in Debian and Ubuntu

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Walter Heck <walterheck@gmail.com> wrote:
> As for MariaDB, I like their much more community driven development
> that seems less commercially driven,
...
> At this point I think MariaDB would probably be a better match for
> being in the main ubuntu/debian distro's as their whole ecosystem
> seems to match better.

Nuances, but I always like to separate the following:

I wouldn't say that MariaDB is any more a community fork than Percona
is. MariaDB is 100% controlled by Monty and his company, just like
Percona Server is controlled and developed by Percona. Both companies
are community friendly and open source minded. However, MariaDB has a
strategy of being very inclusive while Percona has a strategy of not
deviating too much from "upstream" MySQL. This is great, because
including things like more storage engines in MariaDB exposes them to
more users - so MariaDB does a great service to those engines in the
MySQL ecosystem.

I believe it is important to make this distinction though, because
many people in Linux distribution space have a tendency to cheer for
the community projects. That would be "neither of the above". (see
Drizzle :-)

Otoh even MariaDB is not - unfortunately - even close at capturing the
wholeness of what is out there in the MySQL ecosystem. I've already
mentioned major things like MySQL 5.5 or Galera, otoh there are lots
of smaller patches too like those from Anders Karlsson or TaoBao. So
like I said, it is unfortunate we don't have a distribution that would
really cover the whole community.

Hence it is a bit of a paradox really: In theory MariaDB should
satisfy more users, since it tries to include more features. In
practice however I've repeatedly found that Percona has been (much)
faster to include stuff that really matters, like MySQL 5.5,
HandlerSocket and Galera. (HandlerSocket is also in the MariaDB 5.3
Release Candidate now.)

So yes, it is difficult to say that either is better than the other.
"In theory, things always work according to the theory, but in
practice they don't."

> Let it be clear that I have no commercial benefits from either one
> over the other, just voicing my opinion.

Good idea to do disclosures! Always a big fan of those:

I believe as an ex employee I own some shares on the MariaDB side.
(The paperwork is still unclear.) So I could greatly benefit if all
the Linux distributions would default to MariaDB and it would then
achieve world domination. I have no financial ties to Percona. When I
worked for MySQL and Sun I had some options that I lost when
resigning.

I currently work for an organization that is a heavy MySQL end user
and have tried to provide this perspective in my writings in this
thread.

henrik
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Old 02-16-2012, 11:06 AM
Colin Charles
 
Default MySQL's future in Debian and Ubuntu

Hi!

On 16 Feb 2012, at 17:24, Henrik Ingo wrote:

> Clearly I was unclear in my previous email. The 2 year support is not
> true for any of the alternatives. MySQL gives 5 years (and more for
> customers that pay), Percona trails MySQL so they also end up doing 5
> years (and more for paying customers). MariaDB also does 5,
> apparently.

Oracle supports MySQL for 5 years from date of release commercially. There is supposedly only two GA releases supported at any one given time (in active support for community use). Of course we have no idea if this is true yet or not since 5.1 and 5.5 are still supported. We will know "firmly" what their plans are when 5.6 is released. Will it then be that 5.1 will drop from active GA support? I have no idea (as I don't work for Oracle). Only time can/will tell

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