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Old 05-31-2011, 03:19 PM
Marcelo Boveto Shima
 
Default Proposal for a Remote Desktop Server.

Hi,

My name is Marcelo Boveto Shima (https://launchpad.net/~marceloshima).
I'm the maintainer of FreeNX-Team (https://launchpad.net/~freenx-team).

I was looking at the blueprints and just found that Ubuntu is planning to
use X2go for Remote Desktop. I don't care if it is included in Ubuntu
repository, but for a supported (main) solution there are better choices.

X2go is a fork of NX. ~1 year ago I looked at X2go source and there were
only visual differences about NX sources. So if Ubuntu is planning to
package X2go sources, please consider to use the package nx-x11 from
freenx-team PPA instead of x2goagent, then adapt x2goserver to use
nxagent instead x2goagent.
nx-x11 package is source v3.0 with multiples archives and x2goagent is
just a repackaged nx-x11 and nxagent with some patches applied.


History (you can jump to the proposal)

FreeNX works great but is using a wrong language, it need a replacement:
First I tried NeatX but it was a plain to work with it.
Then X2go, but it was not compatible with Nomachine binary client.
The I wrote TaciX in python, but then I the daemon it in Vala and kept the
shell in python, it was working perfect.
But then I decided to just wait for a solution done right, a solution
based on ConsoleKit (the consolekit multi-seat branch).
But the multi-seat branch was never accepted upstream.


Proposal

As Ubuntu solution for a Remote Desktop Server I propose is to develop
an new server based on LightDM. Most of the features needed is already
there.
LightDM must be able to run an nxagent-wrapper instead of Xorg and
create a way to the shell to communicate to the nxagent-wrapper.

This is the architecture I used to develop TaciX. TaciX is modular, and have
support for NXClient and RDP.

So I propose LightDM to add Remote Desktop support and I will help to
provide the Shell that communicates to NXClient and a server that accepts
RDP connections.


Regards.
Marcelo

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Old 06-01-2011, 03:58 PM
Scott Moser
 
Default Proposal for a Remote Desktop Server.

On Tue, 31 May 2011, Marcelo Boveto Shima wrote:

> Hi,
>
> My name is Marcelo Boveto Shima (https://launchpad.net/~marceloshima).
> I'm the maintainer of FreeNX-Team (https://launchpad.net/~freenx-team).
>
> I was looking at the blueprints and just found that Ubuntu is planning to
> use X2go for Remote Desktop. I don't care if it is included in Ubuntu
> repository, but for a supported (main) solution there are better choices.
>
> X2go is a fork of NX. ~1 year ago I looked at X2go source and there were
> only visual differences about NX sources. So if Ubuntu is planning to
> package X2go sources, please consider to use the package nx-x11 from
> freenx-team PPA instead of x2goagent, then adapt x2goserver to use
> nxagent instead x2goagent.
> nx-x11 package is source v3.0 with multiples archives and x2goagent is
> just a repackaged nx-x11 and nxagent with some patches applied.

We chose x2go as it seems to be the most active NX client and server
option. x2go does maintain a fork of nxagent under the name 'x2goagent'.
However, the other libraries are not a fork of the nx libraries; x2go
provides a set of api compatible patches for libnx.

The focus for the remote desktop is really to get a fully functional
remote desktop available in Ubuntu. Incorporating x2go seemed to be the
best option to reach that goal.

We're interested in providing a solution that works. At this time we
believe that x2go is the best supportable solution. This by no means
implies that the decision is final for eternity.

Just as an fyi, one thing that was considered was the fact that NoMachine
may not be a long term sustainable upstream for NX. From
http://www.nomachine.com/news-read.php?idnews=331, see:
| This release marks an important milestone in the history of the
| company. Version 4 of the software, in fact, will be only available
| under a closed source license.

Additionally, compatibility with the closed source NX client has not been
a major concern. During the Natty cycle, myself and others were bitten by
trying to rely on the closed source only NX applet in awstrial. Having a
fully functional open source offering is much more interesting (such as
x2go is trying to develop with their x2goplugin).


> Proposal
>
> As Ubuntu solution for a Remote Desktop Server I propose is to develop
> an new server based on LightDM. Most of the features needed is already
> there.
> LightDM must be able to run an nxagent-wrapper instead of Xorg and
> create a way to the shell to communicate to the nxagent-wrapper.
>
> This is the architecture I used to develop TaciX. TaciX is modular, and have
> support for NXClient and RDP.
>
> So I propose LightDM to add Remote Desktop support and I will help to
> provide the Shell that communicates to NXClient and a server that accepts
> RDP connections.

I'm not sure that I entirely understand what you're suggesting. If your
goal is to extend lightDM to have "remote login" support, so that the
login process would launch some NX client to a remote system, I think that
would be really cool, but it is outside the scope of of the original
goals.

Do you think that such a thing would not be possible using x2go as the
client?

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Old 06-01-2011, 11:52 PM
Marcelo Shima
 
Default Proposal for a Remote Desktop Server.

Em 01/06/2011, ąs 12:58, Scott Moser <smoser@ubuntu.com> escreveu:

On Tue, 31 May 2011, Marcelo Boveto Shima wrote:


Hi,

My name is Marcelo Boveto Shima (https://launchpad.net/~marceloshima).

I'm the maintainer of FreeNX-Team (https://launchpad.net/~freenx-team).


I was looking at the blueprints and just found that Ubuntu is planning to
use X2go for Remote Desktop. I don't care if it is included in Ubuntu

repository, but for a supported (main) solution there are better choices.

X2go is a fork of NX. ~1 year ago I looked at X2go source and there were

only visual differences about NX sources. So if Ubuntu is planning to
package X2go sources, please consider to use the package nx-x11 from

freenx-team PPA instead of x2goagent, then adapt x2goserver to use
nxagent instead x2goagent.

nx-x11 package is source v3.0 with multiples archives and x2goagent is
just a repackaged nx-x11 and nxagent with some patches applied.


We chose x2go as it seems to be the most active NX client and server
option. *x2go does maintain a fork of nxagent under the name 'x2goagent'.
However, the other libraries are not a fork of the nx libraries; x2go

provides a set of api compatible patches for libnx.


As far as I know x2goagent is just visual patches too.
No bug fixes, no features, no api changes.
The focus for the remote desktop is really to get a fully functional
remote desktop available in Ubuntu. *Incorporating x2go seemed to be the

best option to reach that goal.

We're interested in providing a solution that works. *At this time we
believe that x2go is the best supportable solution. **This by no means

implies that the decision is final for eternity.

Just as an fyi, one thing that was considered was the fact that NoMachine
may not be a long term sustainable upstream for NX. *From

http://www.nomachine.com/news-read.php?idnews=331, see:
*| This release marks an important milestone in the history of the
*| company. *Version 4 of the software, in fact, will be only available

*| under a closed source license.


I am aware of it.Spice seems the best alternative for the future.*

Additionally, compatibility with the closed source NX client has not been
a major concern. *During the Natty cycle, myself and others were bitten by
trying to rely on the closed source only NX applet in awstrial. *Having a

fully functional open source offering is much more interesting (such as
x2go is trying to develop with their x2goplugin).


A plugin is a nice idea. So go for it.


Proposal

As Ubuntu solution for a Remote Desktop Server I propose is to develop

an new server based on LightDM. Most of the features needed is already
there.

LightDM must be able to run an nxagent-wrapper instead of Xorg and
create a way to the shell to communicate to the nxagent-wrapper.


This is the architecture I used to develop TaciX. TaciX is modular, and have
support for NXClient and RDP.


So I propose LightDM to add Remote Desktop support and I will help to
provide the Shell that communicates to NXClient and a server that accepts

RDP connections.

I'm not sure that I entirely understand what you're suggesting. If your
goal is to extend lightDM to have "remote login" support, so that the

login process would launch some NX client to a remote system, I think that
would be really cool, but it is outside the scope of of the original
goals.



Yes. That's the reason I'm proposing it here.
Do you think that such a thing would not be possible using x2go as the
client?


It is possible and can be a goal.In lightdm language it would be a x2go greeter.


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Old 06-02-2011, 02:19 AM
Scott Moser
 
Default Proposal for a Remote Desktop Server.

On Wed, 1 Jun 2011, Marcelo Shima wrote:

Please send plaintext responses. Your comments are very difficult to find
in a text only reader.

> As far as I know x2goagent is just visual patches too.
> No bug fixes, no features, no api changes.

So why would you be so opposed to using that as an upstream? Anything
other than just avoiding unnecessary duplication? That is obviously a
perfectly valid reason, I'm just curious if you had others.

>> Just as an fyi, one thing that was considered was the fact that NoMachine
>> may not be a long term sustainable upstream for NX. From
>> http://www.nomachine.com/news-read.php?idnews=331, see:
>> | This release marks an important milestone in the history of the
>> | company. Version 4 of the software, in fact, will be only available
>> | under a closed source license.
>
> I am aware of it.
> Spice seems the best alternative for the future.

I will admit to not being terribly familiar with Spice, but the two things
that kept me from considering it a completely useful solution were
a.) It seems that it is only a solution for virtual machines (ie, running
under kvm.
We need a solution that would work with "bare metal", lxc or inside of
an EC2 instance (xen guest where Amazon controls the host).
b.) it seems more focused on "virtual desktop" than "remote desktop".
By that I mean more "low latency, high bandwidth network", than "high
bandwidth [relatively] high latency".

I could be wrong on either of those points, and obviously work could be
done to address them.


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Old 06-02-2011, 01:46 PM
Marcelo Boveto Shima
 
Default Proposal for a Remote Desktop Server.

On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 11:19 PM, Scott Moser <smoser@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Jun 2011, Marcelo Shima wrote:
>
> Please send plaintext responses. Your comments are very difficult to find
> in a text only reader.

Odd I always thought iphone sends plain text mails.
Seems I was wrong. Sorry about that.

>
>> As far as I know x2goagent is just visual patches too.
>> No bug fixes, no features, no api changes.
>
> So why would you be so opposed to using that as an upstream? *Anything
> other than just avoiding unnecessary duplication? That is obviously a
> perfectly valid reason, I'm just curious if you had others.

X2goagent changes the output s/nxagent/x2goagent. This will break
FreeNX, but it is a reason that can be ignored since freenx is not in the
repository.

I tried for 2 times the MOTU process, nxcompshad was accepted but
no nx-x11/nxagent, no nxcomp, no nxcompext nor freenx. And I must
say that nxcomp and nxcompext packages uploaded to the repository
last month are almost identical to the packages from freenx-team ppa.
So the work was just redone.

These were just rants. I needed to do that =).

Continuing, I think nx-x11/nxagent is ready for inclusion.
Maybe a dsfg version without the nx logos would be better.
X2go team will take the visual/output patches they've made and port
them to nx 3.5.0 and then they will be updated.

I use freenx for 5+ years and will continue to use it. until a good
replacement is developed. X2go is just the same.

>
>>> Just as an fyi, one thing that was considered was the fact that NoMachine
>>> may not be a long term sustainable upstream for NX. *From
>>> http://www.nomachine.com/news-read.php?idnews=331, see:
>>> *| This release marks an important milestone in the history of the
>>> *| company. *Version 4 of the software, in fact, will be only available
>>> *| under a closed source license.
>>
>> I am aware of it.
>> Spice seems the best alternative for the future.
>
> I will admit to not being terribly familiar with Spice, but the two things
> that kept me from considering it a completely useful solution were
> a.) It seems that it is only a solution for virtual machines (ie, running
> under kvm.
> *We need a solution that would work with "bare metal", lxc or inside of
> an EC2 instance (xen guest where Amazon controls the host).

http://spice-space.org/page/Features/XSpice
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/~alon/xspice

XSpice is a xf86-video-qxl driver fork, so just execute Xorg with an
xorg.conf using it.
The best thing about it is that Spice is not an xorg 6.9 rc(something) fork.
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/~alon/xspice/tree/README.xspice?h=xspice.v4

But has I said it is for the future.

> b.) it seems more focused on "virtual desktop" than "remote desktop".
> *By that I mean more "low latency, high bandwidth network", than "high
> bandwidth [relatively] high latency".

Has far I'm concerned these features are top priority too.

>
> I could be wrong on either of those points, and obviously work could be
> done to address them.

For the future I want a Spice greeter for lightdm. =)

If x2go is the choice for Ubuntu, I have no problem with it, but
I think it is important to add support for managing remote desktops
technologies in the core of the session manager. That is the solution I'm
proposing. The solution will involve lightdm developers and can be started
now and be stable for Ubuntu 12.04 lts release.

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Old 06-02-2011, 02:26 PM
Robbie Williamson
 
Default Proposal for a Remote Desktop Server.

On 06/02/2011 08:46 AM, Marcelo Boveto Shima wrote:
> If x2go is the choice for Ubuntu, I have no problem with it, but
> I think it is important to add support for managing remote desktops
> technologies in the core of the session manager. That is the solution I'm
> proposing. The solution will involve lightdm developers and can be started
> now and be stable for Ubuntu 12.04 lts release.
Just for the record, anything involving lightdm development should go
through the Desktop team, specifically Robert Ancell.

-Robbie

--
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robbiew[irc.freenode.net]

"You can't be lucky all the time, but you can be smart everyday"
-Mos Def

"Arrogance is thinking you are better than everyone else, while
Confidence is knowing no one else is better than you." -Me


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Old 06-02-2011, 02:37 PM
Scott Moser
 
Default Proposal for a Remote Desktop Server.

On Thu, 2 Jun 2011, Marcelo Boveto Shima wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 11:19 PM, Scott Moser <smoser@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 1 Jun 2011, Marcelo Shima wrote:
> >

> X2goagent changes the output s/nxagent/x2goagent. This will break
> FreeNX, but it is a reason that can be ignored since freenx is not in the
> repository.

I'd think that we could fix freenx, right? I'd say we should.
Fyi, there are a few changes I made to a freenx-server in a ppa at
https://launchpad.net/~awstrial-dev/+archive/nx/+packages .

The patches are in debian/patches, and affect
- handling of '=' (and other characters) in the CMDLINE.
- zenity support to nxdialog.
- kind of hacky:
add "endsession hooks" (when user closes window and selects
'terminate', a runparts will be done on a certain directory).

> I tried for 2 times the MOTU process, nxcompshad was accepted but
> no nx-x11/nxagent, no nxcomp, no nxcompext nor freenx. And I must
> say that nxcomp and nxcompext packages uploaded to the repository
> last month are almost identical to the packages from freenx-team ppa.
> So the work was just redone.
>
> These were just rants. I needed to do that =).

Well, luckily stgraber is pushing on that now, so we may get *something*
into the archive. Thank you for your work in the past, I've used it and I
know that many others have.

> http://spice-space.org/page/Features/XSpice
> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/~alon/xspice

Awesome to see that work is being done there.

>
> XSpice is a xf86-video-qxl driver fork, so just execute Xorg with an
> xorg.conf using it.
> The best thing about it is that Spice is not an xorg 6.9 rc(something) fork.
> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/~alon/xspice/tree/README.xspice?h=xspice.v4

Yeah, that is *huge*.

> For the future I want a Spice greeter for lightdm. =)
>
> If x2go is the choice for Ubuntu, I have no problem with it, but
> I think it is important to add support for managing remote desktops
> technologies in the core of the session manager. That is the solution I'm
> proposing. The solution will involve lightdm developers and can be started
> now and be stable for Ubuntu 12.04 lts release.

I think that would be great, and people would be open to accepting such
work. I would suggest filing a blueprint, you can copy me. If you're
willing to do all the work, then there shouldn't be any real issue.

Scott

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Old 06-02-2011, 05:31 PM
Marcelo Boveto Shima
 
Default Proposal for a Remote Desktop Server.

On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Scott Moser <smoser@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Jun 2011, Marcelo Boveto Shima wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 11:19 PM, Scott Moser <smoser@ubuntu.com> wrote:
>> > On Wed, 1 Jun 2011, Marcelo Shima wrote:
>> >
>
>> X2goagent changes the output s/nxagent/x2goagent. This will break
>> FreeNX, but it is a reason that can be ignored since freenx is not in the
>> repository.
>
> I'd think that we could fix freenx, right? *I'd say we should.

Really? FreeNX is not broken to be fixed. Just keep it outside of
repository. I think it is a waste of time porting it to x2goagent.

> Fyi, there are a few changes I made to a freenx-server in a ppa at
> https://launchpad.net/~awstrial-dev/+archive/nx/+packages .
>
> The patches are in debian/patches, and affect
> *- handling of '=' (and other characters) in the CMDLINE.
> *- zenity support to nxdialog.
> *- kind of hacky:
> * add "endsession hooks" (when user closes window and selects
> * 'terminate', a runparts will be done on a certain directory).

Please I can assign ubuntu-server or awstrial-dev as owner of the
freenx-team and then just upload to the freenx-team instead of
create a new ppa from another team.

That been said, I've already included those patches and took another
snapshot from:
http://git.altlinux.org/people/boris/packages/?p=freenx-server.git;a=summary
They are actively maintaining the freenx-server.

All these changes are in the freenx-team ppa now.
And I also fixed the problem that the session was taking a long time to
start. So the awstrial-dev team can consider to update the nx-x11 package
the the new 3.5.0

>
>> I tried for 2 times the MOTU process, nxcompshad was accepted but
>> no nx-x11/nxagent, no nxcomp, no nxcompext nor freenx. And I must
>> say that nxcomp and nxcompext packages uploaded to the repository
>> last month are almost identical to the packages from freenx-team ppa.
>> So the work was just redone.
>>
>> These were just rants. I needed to do that =).
>
> Well, luckily stgraber is pushing on that now, so we may get *something*
> into the archive. *Thank you for your work in the past, I've used it and I
> know that many others have.

Thanks.

>
>> http://spice-space.org/page/Features/XSpice
>> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/~alon/xspice
>
> Awesome to see that work is being done there.
>
>>
>> XSpice is a xf86-video-qxl driver fork, so just execute Xorg with an
>> xorg.conf using it.
>> The best thing about it is that Spice is not an xorg 6.9 rc(something) fork.
>> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/~alon/xspice/tree/README.xspice?h=xspice.v4
>
> Yeah, that is *huge*.
>
>> For the future I want a Spice greeter for lightdm. =)
>>
>> If x2go is the choice for Ubuntu, I have no problem with it, but
>> I think it is important to add support for managing remote desktops
>> technologies in the core of the session manager. That is the solution I'm
>> proposing. The solution will involve lightdm developers and can be started
>> now and be stable for Ubuntu 12.04 lts release.
>
> I think that would be great, and people would be open to accepting such
> work. *I would suggest filing a blueprint, you can copy me. *If you're
> willing to do all the work, then there shouldn't be any real issue.
>
> Scott
>

Ok then. basically you are saying is "It's a good idea and you are
free to do it.
It is open source. The bureaucracy is just to ensure the quality. And don't
forget to sign the contributor agreement (I've already signed)". =)

As I say I am willing to help. Sorry but I will not waste my time on this
without some support from the developers.

Regards

Marcelo

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Old 06-02-2011, 05:57 PM
Marcelo Boveto Shima
 
Default Proposal for a Remote Desktop Server.

On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Robbie Williamson <robbie@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> On 06/02/2011 08:46 AM, Marcelo Boveto Shima wrote:
>> If x2go is the choice for Ubuntu, I have no problem with it, but
>> I think it is important to add support for managing remote desktops
>> technologies in the core of the session manager. That is the solution I'm
>> proposing. The solution will involve lightdm developers and can be started
>> now and be stable for Ubuntu 12.04 lts release.
> Just for the record, anything involving lightdm development should go
> through the Desktop team, specifically Robert Ancell.

Yes, the final word is from the lightdm developers. But the blueprint
is from the ubuntu-server so I was talking to them first.

Ubuntu Server Team decided to use x2go.
I was asking them to promote the idea of adding remote destkop feature
to lightdm.

By the way as I am replying to Robert Ancel too. From LightDM list:

Robert Ancell robert.ancell at gmail.com:
>> Is there time now to consider the inclusion of some of the more offbeat use
>> cases?
>> 1: Headless(no monitor, keyboard, or monitor)
>
>Works now.
>
>> 2: True headless(no video card) but Xvfb.
>
>Pass, I guess if X supports it? Bryce is probably the right person to
>know this one.

Basically what we need for remote desktop is those 2 features and
a way for the greeter to talk to the X server (Xvfb, nxagent, Xrdp, Xvnc,
etc).

NX greeter <-> lightdm <-> nxagent

RDP greeter <-> lightdm <-> Xrdp

I my opinion this is excellent way to promote lightdm.

If Robert is interested in helping the discussion should continue in the
LightDM list.

Regards.
Marcelo

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Old 06-10-2011, 03:31 AM
Robert Ancell
 
Default Proposal for a Remote Desktop Server.

On 06/03/2011 03:57 AM, Marcelo Boveto Shima wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Robbie Williamson <robbie@ubuntu.com> wrote:
>> On 06/02/2011 08:46 AM, Marcelo Boveto Shima wrote:
>>> If x2go is the choice for Ubuntu, I have no problem with it, but
>>> I think it is important to add support for managing remote desktops
>>> technologies in the core of the session manager. That is the solution I'm
>>> proposing. The solution will involve lightdm developers and can be started
>>> now and be stable for Ubuntu 12.04 lts release.
>> Just for the record, anything involving lightdm development should go
>> through the Desktop team, specifically Robert Ancell.
> Yes, the final word is from the lightdm developers. But the blueprint
> is from the ubuntu-server so I was talking to them first.
>
> Ubuntu Server Team decided to use x2go.
> I was asking them to promote the idea of adding remote destkop feature
> to lightdm.
>
> Basically what we need for remote desktop is those 2 features and
> a way for the greeter to talk to the X server (Xvfb, nxagent, Xrdp, Xvnc,
> etc).
>
> NX greeter <-> lightdm <-> nxagent
>
> RDP greeter <-> lightdm <-> Xrdp
>
> I my opinion this is excellent way to promote lightdm.
>
> If Robert is interested in helping the discussion should continue in the
> LightDM list.
Absolutely interested, the list is lightdm@lists.freedesktop.org for
those who aren't aware.


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