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05-26-2010 03:28 AM

Server Support
 
I second to that
------Mensaje original------
De: Scott Kitterman
Remitente:ubuntu-server-bounces@lists.ubuntu.com
Para:ubuntu-server@lists.ubuntu.com
Asunto: Server Support
Enviado: 25 May, 2010 20:54

One of the work items listed in:

https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-maverick-community

is now:

+ ubuntu-server IRC channel: both support and devel. Change the topic to
+ remove Support.


If we are going to drop support from the topic of #ubuntu-server, what is the
plan to support the server community on IRC? In my experience server people
require a different kind of support than desktop users and so I don't think
tossing server support into #ubuntu is the right answer.

Scott K

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Jim Tarvid 05-26-2010 04:16 AM

Server Support
 
Some disaggregation of the IRC channels is in order. #ubuntu is bad for your mental health. As one with the Gerald Ford syndrome (I can't walk and chew gum at the same time), I simply can't keep the threads sorted out.


#ubuntu-server at 1/6th the size of #ubuntu is more intelligible but even then, some threads are beyond my cognitive ability. I presume the authors have some purpose in posting but the posts themselves defy comprehension.


How about #ubuntu-server-panic for those times when a formerly working server is broken; #ubuntu-server-support for help in adding new features; #ubuntu-server-lounge for general bs.

I read https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-maverick-community three times before it started to make some sense. Maybe I am getting old and the bloom is off the rose. The most fun I have had lately is playing with the Google App Engine (python). "Development" of neo-plastic embolisms is not healthy for an organism.


Jim



On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 10:54 PM, Scott Kitterman <ubuntu@kitterman.com> wrote:

One of the work items listed in:



https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-maverick-community



is now:



+ ubuntu-server IRC channel: both support and devel. Change the topic to

+ remove Support.





If we are going to drop support from the topic of #ubuntu-server, what is the

plan to support the server community on IRC? *In my experience server people

require a different kind of support than desktop users and so I don't think

tossing server support into #ubuntu is the right answer.



Scott K



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Nigel Jones 05-26-2010 04:22 AM

Server Support
 
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Scott Kitterman <ubuntu@kitterman.com> wrote:
> One of the work items listed in:
>
> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-maverick-community
>
> is now:
>
> + ubuntu-server IRC channel: both support and devel. Change the topic to
> + remove Support.
>
>
> If we are going to drop support from the topic of #ubuntu-server, what is the
> plan to support the server community on IRC? *In my experience server people
> require a different kind of support than desktop users and so I don't think
> tossing server support into #ubuntu is the right answer.
>
Surely it should be the other way round, drop Devel from
#ubuntu-server and create #ubuntu-server-devel.

My 2c.

- Nigel

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Soren Hansen 05-27-2010 09:06 AM

Server Support
 
On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 10:54:17PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> One of the work items listed in:
>
> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-maverick-community
>
> is now:
>
> + ubuntu-server IRC channel: both support and devel. Change the topic to
> + remove Support.

Oh, wow. I completely missed this. Thanks for pointing this out.

I hope this is just a suggestion someone put into the Gobby doc at UDS,
rather than an actual work item.

Mathias, you're set as the drafter. Can you chime in, please?

I was the one who added the support bit to /TOPIC to begin with years
ago and I stand by that decision. If I have spare cycles at all, I want
to help people with problems with Ubuntu Server, but there's no way I'm
joining #ubuntu to do that. I'd like for #ubuntu-server to be an
appropriate forum for all things related to Ubuntu Server. IME it's not
anywhere near too busy with support stuff to prevent the developers from
having conversations about development stuff. If other people feel
differently, I don't believe the solution is to remove the support
option from #ubuntu-server, but probably rather to move the developmenty
sort of stuff to #ubuntu-devel or maybe, just maybe, to
#ubuntu-server-devel, but I don't think we're at a volume where a
separate dev channel is warranted.

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Thierry Carrez 05-27-2010 10:16 AM

Server Support
 
Soren Hansen wrote:
> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 10:54:17PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>> One of the work items listed in:
>>
>> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-maverick-community
>>
>> is now:
>>
>> + ubuntu-server IRC channel: both support and devel. Change the topic to
>> + remove Support.
>
> Oh, wow. I completely missed this. Thanks for pointing this out.
>
> I hope this is just a suggestion someone put into the Gobby doc at UDS,
> rather than an actual work item.
>
> Mathias, you're set as the drafter. Can you chime in, please?

I can chime in, I was there.

Jorge Castro was present and said he noticed the Ubuntu Server team
didn't really chat in #ubuntu-server at all, and the channel was quite
dead from a "team discussion" perspective. It was just made of
unanswered support questions that echoed in a big void, which looked bad.

In my case, actually having those unanswered questions kind of prevent
me from using the channel for random development chat. I don't feel like
appearing as an insensitive developer that continues his work and jokes
with co-workers while people beg for help on the channel. And most of
the time I could help them, if only I had the free time[tm] to do so.

So I support the idea that having a separate support channel for -server
would result in a more lively server development channel, where you
could chat about development without (directly) appearing like a
careless bastard^H^H overworked person. When/if I have time to do server
support, I move to the other channel and answer questions. There is
value in having separated topics.

That said, I agree that support should go somewhere well defined, rather
than just being "removed from topic". I've no opinion on how best to
separate them:

* #ubuntu-server = dev // #??? = support
* #ubuntu-server = support // #ubuntu-server-dev = dev
* ...

The second option might actually be more discoverable, since developers
will know where development talk occurs, while it's difficult to change
the habits of the unwashed masses.

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Scott Kitterman 05-27-2010 10:40 AM

Server Support
 
"Thierry Carrez" <thierry.carrez@ubuntu.com> wrote:

>Soren Hansen wrote:
>> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 10:54:17PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>>> One of the work items listed in:
>>>
>>> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-maverick-community
>>>
>>> is now:
>>>
>>> + ubuntu-server IRC channel: both support and devel. Change the topic to
>>> + remove Support.
>>
>> Oh, wow. I completely missed this. Thanks for pointing this out.
>>
>> I hope this is just a suggestion someone put into the Gobby doc at UDS,
>> rather than an actual work item.
>>
>> Mathias, you're set as the drafter. Can you chime in, please?
>
>I can chime in, I was there.
>
>Jorge Castro was present and said he noticed the Ubuntu Server team
>didn't really chat in #ubuntu-server at all, and the channel was quite
>dead from a "team discussion" perspective. It was just made of
>unanswered support questions that echoed in a big void, which looked bad.
>
>In my case, actually having those unanswered questions kind of prevent
>me from using the channel for random development chat. I don't feel like
>appearing as an insensitive developer that continues his work and jokes
>with co-workers while people beg for help on the channel. And most of
>the time I could help them, if only I had the free time[tm] to do so.
>
>So I support the idea that having a separate support channel for -server
>would result in a more lively server development channel, where you
>could chat about development without (directly) appearing like a
>careless bastard^H^H overworked person. When/if I have time to do server
>support, I move to the other channel and answer questions. There is
>value in having separated topics.
>
>That said, I agree that support should go somewhere well defined, rather
>than just being "removed from topic". I've no opinion on how best to
>separate them:
>
>* #ubuntu-server = dev // #??? = support
>* #ubuntu-server = support // #ubuntu-server-dev = dev
>* ...
>
>The second option might actually be more discoverable, since developers
>will know where development talk occurs, while it's difficult to change
>the habits of the unwashed masses.
>

And yet I regularly hear Canonical wishing for more engagement from the server community in development activities. I think if you would invest some time in engaging this community instead of avoiding it you would get more engagement in return.

I mix development discussion with other support related chat and don't sense any negativity from it. The most I have to do is occasionally tell someone I either don't have time to help them or don't know the answer to their question. Generally people understand this. I think only once or twice in years was this a problem.

I think your reticence to use the channel is the thing that needs changing here, not the channel.

Scott K

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Nigel Jones 05-27-2010 10:57 AM

Server Support
 
On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 10:16 PM, Thierry Carrez
<thierry.carrez@ubuntu.com> wrote:
[snip]
>
> That said, I agree that support should go somewhere well defined, rather
> than just being "removed from topic". I've no opinion on how best to
> separate them:
>
> * #ubuntu-server = dev // #??? = support
> * #ubuntu-server = support // #ubuntu-server-dev = dev
> * ...
>
> The second option might actually be more discoverable, since developers
> will know where development talk occurs, while it's difficult to change
> the habits of the unwashed masses.

As someone that wants to get involved, the second option (as I already
suggested) would be the best, for the sole reason not to alienate the
community. The logic is, there is #ubuntu/#ubuntu-devel so
#ubuntu-server/#ubuntu-server-devel (or dev to fit in with package
naming conventions ;)) seems logical.

I'd also say that another reason is (and this carries on from
Thierry's other statement, if there is someone having an "oh my, my
stuff is really broken and I want it fixed ASAP" moment, and I don't
know about <stuff> , it's far less rude and distracting for all
parties, if I continue on with a potentially highly detailed technical
conversation with another person in different channel.

- Nigel

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Neal McBurnett 05-27-2010 03:33 PM

Server Support
 
On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 06:40:23AM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> "Thierry Carrez" <thierry.carrez@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> >I can chime in, I was there.
> >
> >Jorge Castro was present and said he noticed the Ubuntu Server team
> >didn't really chat in #ubuntu-server at all, and the channel was quite
> >dead from a "team discussion" perspective. It was just made of
> >unanswered support questions that echoed in a big void, which looked bad.
> >
> >In my case, actually having those unanswered questions kind of prevent
> >me from using the channel for random development chat. I don't feel like
> >appearing as an insensitive developer that continues his work and jokes
> >with co-workers while people beg for help on the channel. And most of
> >the time I could help them, if only I had the free time[tm] to do so.
> >
> >So I support the idea that having a separate support channel for -server
> >would result in a more lively server development channel, where you
> >could chat about development without (directly) appearing like a
> >careless bastard^H^H overworked person. When/if I have time to do server
> >support, I move to the other channel and answer questions. There is
> >value in having separated topics.
> >
> >That said, I agree that support should go somewhere well defined, rather
> >than just being "removed from topic". I've no opinion on how best to
> >separate them:
> >
> >* #ubuntu-server = dev // #??? = support
> >* #ubuntu-server = support // #ubuntu-server-dev = dev
> >* ...
> >
> >The second option might actually be more discoverable, since developers
> >will know where development talk occurs, while it's difficult to change
> >the habits of the unwashed masses.
> >
>
> And yet I regularly hear Canonical wishing for more engagement from the server community in development activities. I think if you would invest some time in engaging this community instead of avoiding it you would get more engagement in return.
>
> I mix development discussion with other support related chat and don't sense any negativity from it. The most I have to do is occasionally tell someone I either don't have time to help them or don't know the answer to their question. Generally people understand this. I think only once or twice in years was this a problem.
>
> I think your reticence to use the channel is the thing that needs changing here, not the channel.
>
> Scott K

Thanks for the background, Thierry, and to Soren and Scott for helping
flesh it out.

It sounds like the biggest issue is that we need better support for
server users, and that should be reflected in the blueprint. If we
can successfully encourage better support, it sounds like the existing
channel will work fine. If not, then splitting the channel might help
the devel side, but may hurt efforts to build community, which is the
purpose of the blueprint.

Are any other IRC channels active in terms of support, e.g. for
virtualization or UEC? #ubuntu-virt? #ubuntu-ec2?

I'll try to get more active helping with support in u-s. Always a
good way to learn how to improve the distro.

Cheers,

Neal McBurnett http://neal.mcburnett.org/

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Jorge Armando Medina 05-27-2010 06:35 PM

Server Support
 
Soren Hansen wrote:
> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 10:54:17PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>
>> One of the work items listed in:
>>
>> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-maverick-community
>>
>> is now:
>>
>> + ubuntu-server IRC channel: both support and devel. Change the topic to
>> + remove Support.
>>
>
> Oh, wow. I completely missed this. Thanks for pointing this out.
>
> I hope this is just a suggestion someone put into the Gobby doc at UDS,
> rather than an actual work item.
>
> Mathias, you're set as the drafter. Can you chime in, please?
>
> I was the one who added the support bit to /TOPIC to begin with years
> ago and I stand by that decision. If I have spare cycles at all, I want
> to help people with problems with Ubuntu Server, but there's no way I'm
> joining #ubuntu to do that. I'd like for #ubuntu-server to be an
> appropriate forum for all things related to Ubuntu Server. IME it's not
> anywhere near too busy with support stuff to prevent the developers from
> having conversations about development stuff. If other people feel
> differently, I don't believe the solution is to remove the support
> option from #ubuntu-server, but probably rather to move the developmenty
> sort of stuff to #ubuntu-devel or maybe, just maybe, to
> #ubuntu-server-devel, but I don't think we're at a volume where a
> separate dev channel is warranted.
>
>
I agree, even that I have not been on the channel latelly I really like
to help otheres to solve their problems with ubuntu server, my vote for
#ubuntu-server-devel.

Best regards

--
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Computación Gráfica de México
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Tel: 55 51 40 72, Ext: 124
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Mathias Gug 06-01-2010 05:07 PM

Server Support
 
Hi,

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 12:16:20PM +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote:
> >>
> >> + ubuntu-server IRC channel: both support and devel. Change the topic to
> >> + remove Support.
> >
>
> Jorge Castro was present and said he noticed the Ubuntu Server team
> didn't really chat in #ubuntu-server at all, and the channel was quite
> dead from a "team discussion" perspective. It was just made of
> unanswered support questions that echoed in a big void, which looked bad.
>
> In my case, actually having those unanswered questions kind of prevent
> me from using the channel for random development chat. I don't feel like
> appearing as an insensitive developer that continues his work and jokes
> with co-workers while people beg for help on the channel. And most of
> the time I could help them, if only I had the free time[tm] to do so.
>

I understand that feeling. One perspective could be to set the expectations
right: answers given in the channel are done on a best effort basis. And one
should not be offended if their questions aren't answered even if people are
chatting in the channel.

The current help factoids states:

Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line
and in the channel, so that others can read and follow it easily). If anyone
knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-)

How about splitting out the help factoid to include a statement about setting
the expectations right:

Thanks for stopping by and ask for help. We'll try to help you out on a best
effort basis. If anyone knows the answer they will probably reply. If you have
a serious problem you may wanna opt for another support option available at
http://www.ubuntu.com/support/.

When someone asks a question one could always use the help factoid to set their
expectations right.

> So I support the idea that having a separate support channel for -server
> would result in a more lively server development channel, where you
> could chat about development without (directly) appearing like a
> careless bastard^H^H overworked person. When/if I have time to do server
> support, I move to the other channel and answer questions. There is
> value in having separated topics.
>

IMO the traffic in #ubuntu-server doesn't warrant the creation of another
channel for now. We can revisit the idea of a channel split (ie
#ubuntu-server-devel) if the traffic in #ubuntu-server increases to the point
where it's becomes counter-productive.

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