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Old 02-14-2009, 10:53 AM
Gaute Amundsen
 
Default Newbie JEOS question

Hi

We are just about to set up two virtual servers to replace one physical.
Now running Zope, apache, haproxy, varnish, postfix, ++ on quad Xeon 3GHz 12 G
ram, and often struggling during peak traffic.

We have decided to switch from rhel4 to ubuntu server, and we immediately
thought jeos 8.04 lts would be the thing, being optimized for VMWare and all.

However the use of the term "virtual appliance" in the marketing materials has
me slightly worried. To me, that implies small simple and lightweight, which
these servers will most certainly not be.

Then I was told about a well known company that hosts lots and lots of plone
servers and are using the plain server version. Reasons unknown.

So what would be your advice here? Is JEOS suitable for a server like this?

Regards

Gaute Amundsen


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Old 02-14-2009, 12:19 PM
Serge van Ginderachter
 
Default Newbie JEOS question

Hi,


You should see JeOS as the same product as Ubuntu server.
The difference lies mostly in list of packages in the default install, which is the very bare minimum minimorum,
and with a tuned kernel that only contains the base elements needed to run within a virtualized environment.

Check the specs on http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/serveredition/jeos

I see JeOS as the more proper install media, for virtual servers. After setup, you just add packages and tweak like any other OS, but you start from a more bare OS, which was tuned for the "Virtual Hardware".

In conclusion, I'd say that yes, JeOS in suitable for your need.


Serge

Serge van Ginderachter http://www.vanginderachter.be/

Kreeg u een "odt" bestand en kan u deze niet openen? Zie http://ginsys.be/odf

----- "Gaute Amundsen" <gaute@pht.no> wrote:

> From: "Gaute Amundsen" <gaute@pht.no>
> To: ubuntu-server@lists.ubuntu.com
> Sent: Saturday, 14 February, 2009 12:53:15 GMT +01:00 Amsterdam / Berlin / Bern / Rome / Stockholm / Vienna
> Subject: Newbie JEOS question
>
> Hi
>
> We are just about to set up two virtual servers to replace one
> physical.
> Now running Zope, apache, haproxy, varnish, postfix, ++ on quad Xeon
> 3GHz 12 G
> ram, and often struggling during peak traffic.
>
> We have decided to switch from rhel4 to ubuntu server, and we
> immediately
> thought jeos 8.04 lts would be the thing, being optimized for VMWare
> and all.
>
> However the use of the term "virtual appliance" in the marketing
> materials has
> me slightly worried. To me, that implies small simple and lightweight,
> which
> these servers will most certainly not be.
>
> Then I was told about a well known company that hosts lots and lots of
> plone
> servers and are using the plain server version. Reasons unknown.
>
> So what would be your advice here? Is JEOS suitable for a server like
> this?
>
> Regards
>
> Gaute Amundsen
>
>
> --
> ubuntu-server mailing list
> ubuntu-server@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-server
> More info: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam

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Old 02-14-2009, 01:04 PM
Gaute Amundsen
 
Default Newbie JEOS question

On Saturday 14 February 2009 14:19:42 Serge van Ginderachter wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> You should see JeOS as the same product as Ubuntu server.
> The difference lies mostly in list of packages in the default install,
> which is the very bare minimum minimorum, and with a tuned kernel that only
> contains the base elements needed to run within a virtualized environment.
>
Well, that is what logic tells me too.

> Check the specs on
> http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/serveredition/jeos

That is precisely the page that had me worried with "appliance" talk
And this one too:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/JeOS

> I see JeOS as the more proper install media, for virtual servers. After
> setup, you just add packages and tweak like any other OS, but you start
> from a more bare OS, which was tuned for the "Virtual Hardware".
>
> In conclusion, I'd say that yes, JeOS in suitable for your need.
>
> Serge

Great! Just what I wanted to hear

It would have been rather embarrassing to make jeos the basis for this new
set-up, just to discover the system and kernel was tuned for single-service
VMs or something.


Thanks

Gaute


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Old 02-14-2009, 03:39 PM
Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk
 
Default Newbie JEOS question

> We are just about to set up two virtual servers to replace one
> physical.
> Now running Zope, apache, haproxy, varnish, postfix, ++ on quad Xeon
> 3GHz 12 G
> ram, and often struggling during peak traffic.

I somehow doubt that virtualizing the server will help speed things
up. virtualization will always add overhead, and smp-guests certainly
imposes rather a lot of overhead. I would think the linux schedulers
(at least one of them) are probably better suited to run the load
efficiently than using separate VMs.

Just my two cents...

roy
--
Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk
(+47) 98013356
roy@karlsbakk.net
--
I all pedagogikk er det essensielt at pensum presenteres
intelligibelt. Det er en elementært imperativ for alle pedagoger å
unngå eksessiv anvendelse av idiomer med fremmed opprinnelse. I de
fleste tilfeller eksisterer adekvate og relevante synonymer på norsk.


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Old 02-14-2009, 04:22 PM
Ken Hansen
 
Default Newbie JEOS question

Ken

On Feb 14, 2009, at 6:53 AM, Gaute Amundsen <gaute@pht.no> wrote:

<snip>

> So what would be your advice here? Is JEOS suitable for a server
> like this?

My advice, would be:

Use an efficient hypervisor to host the VMs, whichever you choose,

Ensure each VM has ample resources,

Evaluate carefully using virtualized NICs for inter-VM networking
versus bonding to actual NICs and switch ports (I'm not pushing one
over the other, I'm suggesting they are not equal, and make sure you
test both),

Use package management to install server software, and let it manage
dependancies - JeOS is a reduced version of Server Ubuntu, and the
package manager will ensure all required software is installed for
your server.

Ken

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Old 02-14-2009, 04:52 PM
Andrew Hodgson
 
Default Newbie JEOS question

Gaute Amundsen wrote:

>Hi

>We are just about to set up two virtual servers to replace one physical.
>Now running Zope, apache, haproxy, varnish, postfix, ++ on quad Xeon 3GHz 12 G
>ram, and often struggling during peak traffic.

>We have decided to switch from rhel4 to ubuntu server, and we immediately
>thought jeos 8.04 lts would be the thing, being optimized for VMWare and all.

>However the use of the term "virtual appliance" in the marketing materials has
>me slightly worried. To me, that implies small simple and lightweight, which
>these servers will most certainly not be.

I always thought (not necessarily correctly) that Jeos was for running on top of the virtual environments, and thus it did not contain all the required drivers (such as NIC, storage etc), that the server version used. Virtual appliances are usually lightweight Linux builds, but that doesn't mean they aren't subjected to heavy loads.

Thus I would also go with Jeos if you were using a virtualization platform underneath that.

Thanks.
Andrew.



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Old 02-14-2009, 07:30 PM
Gaute Amundsen
 
Default Newbie JEOS question

On Saturday 14 February 2009 17:39:44 Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk wrote:
> > We are just about to set up two virtual servers to replace one
> > physical.
> > Now running Zope, apache, haproxy, varnish, postfix, ++ on quad Xeon
> > 3GHz 12 G
> > ram, and often struggling during peak traffic.
>
> I somehow doubt that virtualizing the server will help speed things
> up. virtualization will always add overhead, and smp-guests certainly
> imposes rather a lot of overhead. I would think the linux schedulers
> (at least one of them) are probably better suited to run the load
> efficiently than using separate VMs.

We're not virtualizing on the same hardware if that's how you read me.
I don't know what hardware they will be running on precisely, but there is a
SAN, and redundant locations, and I presume CPUs a few years newer than ours,
so I don't worry too much. Ram usage, on the other hand, which is now a major
billable item, that is a challenge. Zope can be a real hog if you let it..

I guess we're virtualizing for mostly the same reasons as everyone else:
outsourcing hardware worries, more flexible expansion path, compartmentalizing
some services, etc. etc.

> I all pedagogikk er det essensielt at pensum presenteres
> intelligibelt. Det er en elementært imperativ for alle pedagoger å
> unngå eksessiv anvendelse av idiomer med fremmed opprinnelse. I de
> fleste tilfeller eksisterer adekvate og relevante synonymer på norsk.

Hvorfor utilisere xenonymer når det finnes adekvate domestikerte substitutter?

Gaute


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Old 02-14-2009, 07:40 PM
Gaute Amundsen
 
Default Newbie JEOS question

On Saturday 14 February 2009 18:22:57 Ken Hansen wrote:
> Ken
>
> On Feb 14, 2009, at 6:53 AM, Gaute Amundsen <gaute@pht.no> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > So what would be your advice here? Is JEOS suitable for a server
> > like this?
>
> My advice, would be:
>
> Use an efficient hypervisor to host the VMs, whichever you choose,
>
> Ensure each VM has ample resources,
>
> Evaluate carefully using virtualized NICs for inter-VM networking
> versus bonding to actual NICs and switch ports (I'm not pushing one
> over the other, I'm suggesting they are not equal, and make sure you
> test both),

Duly noted. The hardware is not my worry happily, but I will make sure to ask
our provider about it.

> Use package management to install server software, and let it manage
> dependancies - JeOS is a reduced version of Server Ubuntu, and the
> package manager will ensure all required software is installed for
> your server.
>
> Ken

Thanks

Gaute


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Old 02-15-2009, 05:18 PM
Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk
 
Default Newbie JEOS question

On 14. feb.. 2009, at 21.24, Gaute Amundsen wrote:

>> I somehow doubt that virtualizing the server will help speed things
>> up. virtualization will always add overhead, and smp-guests certainly
>> imposes rather a lot of overhead. I would think the linux schedulers
>> (at least one of them) are probably better suited to run the load
>> efficiently than using separate VMs.
>
> We're not virtualizing on the same hardware if that's how you read
> me.
> I don't know what hardware they will be running on precisely, but
> there is a
> SAN, and redundant locations, and I presume CPUs a few years newer
> than ours,
> so I don't worry too much. Ram usage, on the other hand, which is
> now a major
> billable item, that is a challenge. Zope can be a real hog if you
> let it..
>
> I guess we're virtualizing for mostly the same reasons as everyone
> else:
> outsourcing hardware worries, more flexible expansion path,
> compartmentalizing
> some services, etc. etc.


Just keep in mind that VMs requiring more than one cpu core will give
you quite som overhead. Even vmware recommends against SMP VMs, so if
Zope is heavy on CPU, it might be better to run it on the host rather
than on a guest.

roy
--
Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk
(+47) 98013356
roy@karlsbakk.net
--
I all pedagogikk er det essensielt at pensum presenteres
intelligibelt. Det er en elementært imperativ for alle pedagoger å
unngå eksessiv anvendelse av idiomer med fremmed opprinnelse. I de
fleste tilfeller eksisterer adekvate og relevante synonymer på norsk.


--
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ubuntu-server@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-server
More info: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam
 
Old 02-16-2009, 07:06 AM
Gaute Amundsen
 
Default Newbie JEOS question

On Sunday 15 February 2009 19:18:25 Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk wrote:
> On 14. feb.. 2009, at 21.24, Gaute Amundsen wrote:
> >> I somehow doubt that virtualizing the server will help speed things
<snip>
>
> Just keep in mind that VMs requiring more than one cpu core will give
> you quite som overhead. Even vmware recommends against SMP VMs, so if
> Zope is heavy on CPU, it might be better to run it on the host rather
> than on a guest.

We're not virtualizing on the same config either.
My original description was for the current hardware only.
I've not had a hand in the negotiations myself, so I don't know exactly, but I
presume the increased performance of our new virtual cpus will more than make
up for them being singlecore.
We are very seldom CPUbound anyway, it's mostly IO that troubles us.
But thanks for your concern

Gaute


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