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Old 01-15-2009, 10:02 PM
Onno Benschop
 
Default Call for testing screen-profiles

On 16/01/09 07:35, Kees Cook wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 11:09:51PM +0100, Mark Schouten wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 15:29 -0600, Dustin Kirkland wrote:
>>
>>> Shall we open the floor for other suggested escape sequences? Please
>>> explain your rationale for why your escape sequence is better than
>>> ctrl-a and ctrl-g...
>>>
>
> I had voted for ctrl-z since it's rare that I background processes, and is
> very close to ctrl-a.
>
>
>> 1: Lot's of people do not have a clue what ctrl-a does. Since Ubuntu
>> focuses on ease of use, it also automatically attrackts less experienced
>> users who will not know what ctrl-a is.
>>
>
> Less experienced users won't likely have an opinion if they don't already
> use screen.
>
>
>> 2: Experienced screen-users will default to ctrl-a since that's what
>> they're using for years.
>>
>
> This is true, but I think it's worth discussing what would make the most
> general sense, if we're suggesting a set of defaults. ctrl-a conflicts
> with editor motions, so it's not a clear-cut winner.
>
>
>> 3: Ctrl-a can be done using one hand. ctrl-a space/$digit switches
>> windows. Maybe it's me, but I don't feel like pressing ctrl-g is a
>> comfortable move, typing wise.
>>
>
> Ctrl-anything can be done with one hand... if you mean left-handed, "g" is
> still on the left hand. The traditional qwerty split is "g" on the left.
>
> I still like ctrl-z, but hey, that's what .screenrc is for.
>
>
I have no particular preference on the issue, but I would like to throw
the following into the ring.

* At one point I recall a discussion about making screen
automatically start when connecting to a server. Is that still the
case? Will that affect the outcome of this discussion?
* Would it be useful to make the default the same as screen has,
seeing that it's using screen, but make it configurable - system
wide, using dpkg-reconfigure. It could be smart enough to notice
that emacs is already installed - who uses that ;-) - and alert
the administrator.
* Are we talking about installing this by default - seeing that
emacs doesn't appear to be installed by default.



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Old 01-15-2009, 10:21 PM
"Dustin Kirkland"
 
Default Call for testing screen-profiles

On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 4:48 PM, Nicolas Valcárcel
<nvalcarcel@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> I have no problem with control-g now, i've been testing screen-profiles
> since the start and at the beginning it was quite hard (sometimes i
> still type cntrl-a before remembering that it's -g) but now i'm quite
> used to that, is just a change, as when someone change from an OS to
> other that is going to feel weird at the beginning but will love at the
> end.
>
> I'm happy with -g, but as kees said, that's what .screenrc is for.

Okay, so what I'm taking from this is that we should:
a) have a sane, agreeable default for the escape sequence
b) provide a simple way to change this using the
screen-profiles-helper configuration utility.

I filed a bug for (b) here:
* https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/screen-profiles/+bug/317675

:-Dustin

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Old 01-15-2009, 11:07 PM
"Dustin Kirkland"
 
Default Call for testing screen-profiles

On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 5:02 PM, Onno Benschop <onno@itmaze.com.au> wrote:
> I have no particular preference on the issue, but I would like to throw
> the following into the ring.
>
> * At one point I recall a discussion about making screen
> automatically start when connecting to a server. Is that still the
> case? Will that affect the outcome of this discussion?

That's configurable with the screen-profiles-helper. If you bring up
the helper with F9, and go to the menu, there's a toggle to "launch
screen by default" or not.

I have a Main Inclusion request filed for screen-profiles. Once it's
in main, I'd like to have "screen" depend on screen-profiles, and I'd
like to have the screen package add "source
/usr/share/screen-profiles/profiles/ubuntu" to the end of
/etc/screenrc. And using select-screen-profile, you could switch it
back to the plain, non-customized one.

I think this would be a really neat, flashy addition to the Ubuntu server.

> * Would it be useful to make the default the same as screen has,
> seeing that it's using screen, but make it configurable - system
> wide, using dpkg-reconfigure. It could be smart enough to notice
> that emacs is already installed - who uses that ;-) - and alert
> the administrator.
> * Are we talking about installing this by default - seeing that
> emacs doesn't appear to be installed by default.

Hmm, I must admit, I'm being swayed toward putting the default escape
sequence back to ctrl-a, and making sure that that's easy to change
with the helper. Let's get some more opinions and votes.

:-Dustin

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Old 01-15-2009, 11:44 PM
Eric Hammond
 
Default Call for testing screen-profiles

Dustin Kirkland wrote:
> Shall we open the floor for other suggested escape sequences? Please
> explain your rationale for why your escape sequence is better than
> ctrl-a and ctrl-g...

I use ctrl-t for screen and have never run into any conflicts with other
applications.

I regularly use for other applications:
ctrl-a (move to start of line in bash and emacs)
ctrl-g (what line am I on? in vi)
ctrl-z (background process)

That said, I think my vote would be to stick with ctrl-a as it is in
screen documentation everywhere and even expert users will expect it to
be the default.

I will set my own keymappings in screen.

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Old 01-16-2009, 12:55 AM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default Call for testing screen-profiles

On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:44:17 -0800 Eric Hammond <ehammond@thinksome.com>
wrote:
>Dustin Kirkland wrote:
>> Shall we open the floor for other suggested escape sequences? Please
>> explain your rationale for why your escape sequence is better than
>> ctrl-a and ctrl-g...
>
>I use ctrl-t for screen and have never run into any conflicts with other
>applications.
>
>I regularly use for other applications:
> ctrl-a (move to start of line in bash and emacs)
> ctrl-g (what line am I on? in vi)
> ctrl-z (background process)
>
>That said, I think my vote would be to stick with ctrl-a as it is in
>screen documentation everywhere and even expert users will expect it to
>be the default.
>
>I will set my own keymappings in screen.

I think this make complete sense.

Scott K

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Old 01-16-2009, 07:53 AM
"Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)"
 
Default Call for testing screen-profiles

Dustin Kirkland wrote:
> Hmm, I must admit, I'm being swayed toward putting the default escape
> sequence back to ctrl-a, and making sure that that's easy to change
> with the helper. Let's get some more opinions and votes.

FWIW, I'm a long-time screen user, and it would be hard for me to get
used to not using ctrl-a for the escape sequence. I'll be upgrading to
Jaunty over the weekend and also give you some feedback on the new
screen profiles.

-Jonathan


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Old 01-16-2009, 08:43 AM
Mark Schouten
 
Default Call for testing screen-profiles

On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 08:02:00AM +0900, Onno Benschop wrote:
> I have no particular preference on the issue, but I would like to throw
> the following into the ring.
>
> * At one point I recall a discussion about making screen
> automatically start when connecting to a server. Is that still the
> case? Will that affect the outcome of this discussion?

I would not like to see screen started by default but leave it
configurable, like it is now.

> * Would it be useful to make the default the same as screen has,
> seeing that it's using screen, but make it configurable - system
> wide, using dpkg-reconfigure. It could be smart enough to notice
> that emacs is already installed - who uses that ;-) - and alert
> the administrator.

Yes.

> * Are we talking about installing this by default - seeing that
> emacs doesn't appear to be installed by default.

afaic screen is installed by default. I install it anyway.

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Old 01-16-2009, 08:44 AM
Mark Schouten
 
Default Call for testing screen-profiles

On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 04:55:49PM -0600, Michael Hipp wrote:
> - Otherwise, is someone going to change the screen man and help pages to
> reflect this "non standard" key choice? Will they re-do this every time
> upstream changes them?
>
> - The zillions of screen HOW-TOs and articles all over the web will now not
> work if you're running Ubuntu.

I had not even thought of the documentation issues.

> - This now means that *every* system must have the new profiles or else screen
> just won't work the same and every action will require entirely too much
> pre-thinking.

Indeed.

> - My hand knows how to do Ctrl-a and I really don't want to try to train it for
> something else. Muscle memory is valuable.



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Old 01-17-2009, 04:38 AM
Peter Matulis
 
Default Call for testing screen-profiles

On 15/01/09 04:29 PM, Dustin Kirkland wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Mark Schouten <mark@prevented.net> wrote:
>> I'll try to use it for a while, see how it goes.
>
> Thanks!
>
>> Just a question though. Why is ctrl-a changed to ctrl-g?
>
> On Ubuntu (and most Linux systems), the default shell uses emacs
> keybindings. As such, ctrl-a is very often used (if you're not an
> emacs user) to move the cursor to the beginning of the line.
>
> The default screen escape sequence, ctrl-a, breaks that.

[...]

> Shall we open the floor for other suggested escape sequences? Please
> explain your rationale for why your escape sequence is better than
> ctrl-a and ctrl-g...
>
> Cheers,
> :-Dustin
>

Since you're remapping why not change it to a single key? That's easier
than two. I have been using the backtick for years without problems.
You just need to hit that key twice any time you want to use it. No
biggie but YMMV.

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Old 01-17-2009, 11:03 AM
Nick Barcet
 
Default Call for testing screen-profiles

On 01/16/2009 12:21 AM, Dustin Kirkland wrote:
> Okay, so what I'm taking from this is that we should:
> a) have a sane, agreeable default for the escape sequence
> b) provide a simple way to change this using the
> screen-profiles-helper configuration utility.
>
> I filed a bug for (b) here:
> * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/screen-profiles/+bug/317675


I have just submitted a branch for merging [1] that allows:
* to specify which escape key to use
* to select a different set of key bindings

Regarding the set of key bindings, I think it would be nice if people
could submit their favorite set. The format should be quite clear
reading /usr/share/screen-profiles/keybindings/Default.

The same applies to default windows (but those are currently defined at
the top of the screen-profiles-helper source).

[1] https://code.launchpad.net/~nijaba/screen-profiles/configure-keybindings

Nick

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