On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 10:34:39PM -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> Please think before you send bugs to Debian. It's great for inter-distro
> relations when we can send them good fixes that make life easier for Debian.
> Stuff like this doesn't help and all and reinforces negative stereotypes that
> are all to common in Debian.

This is a great reminder, and I think one that should go out to a broader medium
that reaches more potential contributors.
>
>
> P.S. Imagine how much fun we're going to have with this kind of thing once
> Launchpad implements one click bug forwarding to Debian.
>
I hope that's a button that is restricted to MOTU or some other prequalified
group, not clickable by any random person?

I know that, for example, Backports nominations can be done by anyone and I go
through plenty of badly marked Backports bug reports


John
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Hello Scott,

Scott Kitterman schrieb:
> Recently I was informed by a DD that I often work with about an odd bug that
> one of my fellow MOTUs had filed. Apparently this person had thought it
> would be good to suggest the Debian Maintainer incorporate the Ubuntu
> specific changes in his package.
>
> While this is generally good, in this case the change was to remove the
> iceweasel symlinks from the package.
>
> This would, of course, have made the package quite broken in Debian.
>
> Please think before you send bugs to Debian. It's great for inter-distro
> relations when we can send them good fixes that make life easier for Debian.
> Stuff like this doesn't help and all and reinforces negative stereotypes that
> are all to common in Debian.

Thanks for this reminder. Maybe we can codify that somewhere in the
wiki. Also the use of submittodebian (ubuntu-dev-tools package) should
be encouraged.


> P.S. Imagine how much fun we're going to have with this kind of thing once
> Launchpad implements one click bug forwarding to Debian.

If you want your specific concerns about future feature implementation
to be answered or addressed, why don't you choose a forum where
Launchpad developers can answer the question?

All open systems have the problem that they could be tampered with. As
somebody who did a lot of Desktop bug triage, I know that a lot of
people will see simple-bug-forwarding as beneficial.

A few things TTBOMK:
- the upstream bug tracker people will need to opt in
- the use of the "forward now" button will not be accessible in the UI
to everybody by default

Have a nice day,
Daniel
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On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 08:10:20 +0100 Daniel Holbach
<daniel.holbach@ubuntu.com> wrote:
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>
>Hello Scott,
>
>Scott Kitterman schrieb:
>> Recently I was informed by a DD that I often work with about an odd bug
that
>> one of my fellow MOTUs had filed. Apparently this person had thought it
>> would be good to suggest the Debian Maintainer incorporate the Ubuntu
>> specific changes in his package.
>>
>> While this is generally good, in this case the change was to remove the
>> iceweasel symlinks from the package.
>>
>> This would, of course, have made the package quite broken in Debian.
>>
>> Please think before you send bugs to Debian. It's great for
inter-distro
>> relations when we can send them good fixes that make life easier for
Debian.
>> Stuff like this doesn't help and all and reinforces negative stereotypes
that
>> are all to common in Debian.
>
>Thanks for this reminder. Maybe we can codify that somewhere in the
>wiki. Also the use of submittodebian (ubuntu-dev-tools package) should
>be encouraged.
>
Go for it. Since the reorganization, I can never tell where things should
go.

>> P.S. Imagine how much fun we're going to have with this kind of thing
once
>> Launchpad implements one click bug forwarding to Debian.
>
>If you want your specific concerns about future feature implementation
>to be answered or addressed, why don't you choose a forum where
>Launchpad developers can answer the question?

Already had the conversation. I didn't get very far with it. No point in
repeating the frustration again.

>All open systems have the problem that they could be tampered with. As
>somebody who did a lot of Desktop bug triage, I know that a lot of
>people will see simple-bug-forwarding as beneficial.

I'm guessing most of these people will be the senders of the bugs. Not the
recipients. I know how I've felt about getting nonsense bugs from Baltix.

>A few things TTBOMK:
> - the upstream bug tracker people will need to opt in
> - the use of the "forward now" button will not be accessible in the UI
>to everybody by default
>
Those are good to hear. That's not how it looked last I heard (it's been a
while).

Scott K

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Daniel Holbach wrote:
> Scott Kitterman schrieb:
>> Please think before you send bugs to Debian. It's great for inter-distro
>> relations when we can send them good fixes that make life easier for Debian.
>> Stuff like this doesn't help and all and reinforces negative stereotypes that
>> are all to common in Debian.
>
> Thanks for this reminder. Maybe we can codify that somewhere in the
> wiki. Also the use of submittodebian (ubuntu-dev-tools package) should
> be encouraged.

This worries me. We apparently have various people who don't think
before sending changes, yet have direct upload access to most of the
archive. Is having a note in the wiki really going to suffice?

It appears to me that people who don't use thought in sending changes
(and I'm aware that this is not occuring all the time - at least, I hope
not!) won't have the thought to check the wiki for sane things to do either.

Hobbsee
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Scott Kitterman schrieb:
> Go for it. Since the reorganization, I can never tell where things should
> go.

Where would you have put it before?

What about doing a title search for Debian?
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/ReportingToDebian seems to stand out to me
as a good place.


> Already had the conversation. I didn't get very far with it. No point in
> repeating the frustration again.

About the forwarding of bugs?


> I'm guessing most of these people will be the senders of the bugs. Not the
> recipients. I know how I've felt about getting nonsense bugs from Baltix.

If you mean that the person reporting the bug is the person that
forwards it upstream, I don't know. We have a lot of bugs that are filed
by users and are forward by somebody who either triaged the issue or who
fixed the bug.

The Debian case might be different but in the case of GNOME more than
95% of the bugs were not forwarded by the bug reporter. (Especially
since the majority of bugs the MOTU team deals with are bugs that have
patches.)

Have a nice day,
Daniel
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Sarah Hobbs schrieb:
> This worries me. We apparently have various people who don't think
> before sending changes, yet have direct upload access to most of the
> archive. Is having a note in the wiki really going to suffice?

Everybody has done a mistake in the past - including you. I really don't
like that you assume that people did not employ thought.

Mistakes are easy to make in a world where lots of problems are dealt
with and lots of conversations go on at the same time. It's our task as
a team to let each other know when things go wrong. The open culture and
trust is our core value.

The challenge is to keep these kinds of incidents low. I'm not inclined
to believe that the percentage of 'broken' forwarded patches is worrying
right now and further not worried that our MOTU members do a bad job.


> It appears to me that people who don't use thought in sending changes
> (and I'm aware that this is not occuring all the time - at least, I hope
> not!) won't have the thought to check the wiki for sane things to do either.

My proposal was to document the use of tools like submittodebian, which
some people might not know about yet.

Have a nice day,
Daniel
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Scott Kitterman schrieb:
> While this is generally good, in this case the change was to remove the
> iceweasel symlinks from the package.

I just thought that it might make sense to add this kind of side-cases
to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingChanges and reference it in
places like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/ReportingToDebian

I'll look into that.

Have a nice day,
Daniel
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