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Old 08-24-2008, 06:44 AM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 19:03:24 +0200 Reinhard Tartler <siretart@ubuntu.com>
wrote:
>Scott Kitterman <ubuntu@kitterman.com> writes:
>
>>>The list Reinhard discussed with you was related to Bugs. I've taken
>>>your second bits of feedback into account for our global priorities, but
>>>signed PPAs were also his #1 pick for the Soyuz list, so you're well
>>>covered.
>>
>> Was there a request for input on the global priorities that I missed?
>
>No. The list of soyuz specs was rather short (compared to the list of
>malone), and the things that were relevant for motu was pretty easy to
>identify, IMO. That's why I didn't request for input on that list.

Which explains the signed PPA issue, but for the meta issues like speed and
U/I not so good, they didn't seek input AFAIK.

Scott K

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Old 08-24-2008, 06:51 AM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 19:43:24 +0200 Reinhard Tartler <siretart@ubuntu.com>
wrote:
>Christian Robottom Reis <kiko@canonical.com> writes:
>> A final note to MOTU specifically following upon the "varied feedback"
>> point I made above. We really do want your feedback. However, it makes
>> /my/ work much less effective when the feedback we do get is conflicting
>> or negative. Presenting balanced, consistent guidance to my team is the
>> best way for you to ensure we do what you want -- I know it's hard, but
>> it's really the right way to do it.
>
>I can only support this. Please, fellow MOTUs, the launchpad guys
>explicitly ask us for feedback so that they can plan their work. They do
>want to work with us, so let's take this oppurtunity and talk
>constructively to each other.

I guess I don't see it. There was no feedback requested that really gets at the issues that
trouble me most. I keep hearing distro development will be a priority, but don't see signs of
it.

This isn't the first time I hear from Launchpad developers about only wanting to hear good
news.

Scott K

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Old 08-24-2008, 09:23 PM
Christian Robottom Reis
 
Default Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 02:22:55PM -0700, Jonathan Marsden wrote:
> I'm just a newcomer to the world of Ubuntu development and Launchpad,
> but I agree 100%. When 'ordinary' pages in LP say things like:
>
> at least 77 queries issued in 7.48 seconds
>
> (that was for https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu a few moments ago) there
> would seem to be a *significant* performance issue. Yet improving
> performance seemingly did not even appear on the list of proposed
> features for 3.0 at all. Why not? Are there currently any stated

In reality it was an overall goal, and one which we did pursue with a
vengeance. The number of timeouts dropped to under 10 a day (!!) for the
whole site over the 3.0 release, and dozens of pages which issues O(n)
queries were fixed. I do get the message: it's still not fast enough;
however that does not mean that we haven't worked hard at improving it.
And 77 queries is actually not that bad; using an ORM with a full
security model you're hard pressed to display as much information as we
do without a cross-request cache.

> Indeed. Was the question "Should the next release of LP be primarily
> about new features, or about performance, or about bug fixes?" seriously
> addressed early in the development cycle of LP 3.0?

It /is/ being addressed as we speak, and that's one of the reasons this
conversation is important to me. On the other hand, the feedback I get,
despite me asking otherwise, doesn't really give me much to work on --
there is too much talking down our process, where what I am looking for
is more encouraging feedback.
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Old 08-24-2008, 09:28 PM
Christian Robottom Reis
 
Default Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 02:41:22AM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> I idled in #Launchpad for quite somee time after the latest U/I shuffle. I
> saw a lot of people show up to complain. I only saw two people (not
> involved in Launchpad development) speak in favor of it. I've heard a lot
> of negative sentiment about it in Ubuntu channels too.

I also hear a lot of negative commentary about pretty much every piece
of software, daily -- including Ubuntu. It's a fact that if you
have a wide enough user base, changing any piece of software is
disruptive. I know people are inconvenienced; that's not helping me
much to do avoid doing so in the future.

> Since your process did not seek feedback on these gloabal issues, I find it
> unsuprising you didn't get much.

It didn't? I'm actually actively collecting global issues as I talk to
everybody in the community. It just doesn't go into the per-team
priority lists (though it's pretty much the only thing I've sent out in
list form) -- because it is actually cross-team.
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Old 08-24-2008, 10:04 PM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 18:28:02 -0300 Christian Robottom Reis
<kiko@async.com.br> wrote:
>On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 02:41:22AM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>> I idled in #Launchpad for quite somee time after the latest U/I shuffle.
I
>> saw a lot of people show up to complain. I only saw two people (not
>> involved in Launchpad development) speak in favor of it. I've heard a
lot
>> of negative sentiment about it in Ubuntu channels too.
>
>I also hear a lot of negative commentary about pretty much every piece
>of software, daily -- including Ubuntu. It's a fact that if you
>have a wide enough user base, changing any piece of software is
>disruptive. I know people are inconvenienced; that's not helping me
>much to do avoid doing so in the future.
>
>> Since your process did not seek feedback on these gloabal issues, I find
it
>> unsuprising you didn't get much.
>
>It didn't? I'm actually actively collecting global issues as I talk to
>everybody in the community. It just doesn't go into the per-team
>priority lists (though it's pretty much the only thing I've sent out in
>list form) -- because it is actually cross-team.

Well there was discussion about U/I and performance on both MOTU and QA
(the only two places I participated) and I eecall people suggesting we
should comment on either because we weren't asked for comment on them in
the list. It's clear to me that at least in those groups your methodology
undersamples dissatisfaction in thses areas.

I can deal with a U/I of pretty much arbitrary complexity and oddness if it
is stable. Launchpad is not a pre-1.0 developmental tool that developers
should feel free to arbitrarily change. I actually prefer working with
Bugzilla currently because even though it has a horrible U/I, I at least
consistently know how it works.

As far as user inconvenience goes, I'm lacking any sense that that is a
concern for Launchpad developers. Most of the feedback I see in the thread
and similar ones is 'please give us some stability and focus on fixing the
bugs in the U/I and making it faster'.

Personally, I think the user feedback that I'm seeing is very clear.
Unfortunately it doesn't seem to match up with what is already decided so
it will likely be discounted and ignored.

Scott K

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Old 08-24-2008, 10:11 PM
Christian Robottom Reis
 
Default Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 06:04:21PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> Personally, I think the user feedback that I'm seeing is very clear.
> Unfortunately it doesn't seem to match up with what is already decided so
> it will likely be discounted and ignored.

Nothing is decided. We're only now starting the 3.0 discussion.
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Old 08-24-2008, 10:22 PM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 19:11:01 -0300 Christian Robottom Reis
<kiko@async.com.br> wrote:
>On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 06:04:21PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>> Personally, I think the user feedback that I'm seeing is very clear.
>> Unfortunately it doesn't seem to match up with what is already decided
so
>> it will likely be discounted and ignored.
>
>Nothing is decided. We're only now starting the 3.0 discussion.

OK.

I think I've given a clear picture of where I stand. We'll see how it
turns out.

Scott K

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Old 08-24-2008, 10:34 PM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 18:23:06 -0300 Christian Robottom Reis
<kiko@async.com.br> wrote:
On the other hand, the feedback I get,
>despite me asking otherwise, doesn't really give me much to work on --
>there is too much talking down our process, where what I am looking for
>is more encouraging feedback.

I think what you are getting is honest feedback about frustration with
Launchpad. I think that if people liked it better you'd get more
encouraging feedback if it was faster, the U/I was more stable, and distro
develpment work was better supported.

Scott K

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Old 08-25-2008, 12:52 AM
Sarah Hobbs
 
Default Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

Scott Kitterman wrote:
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 18:23:06 -0300 Christian Robottom Reis
<kiko@async.com.br> wrote:

On the other hand, the feedback I get,

despite me asking otherwise, doesn't really give me much to work on --
there is too much talking down our process, where what I am looking for
is more encouraging feedback.


I think what you are getting is honest feedback about frustration with
Launchpad. I think that if people liked it better you'd get more
encouraging feedback if it was faster, the U/I was more stable, and distro
develpment work was better supported.


Scott K

I'm in agreement with ScottK here - How, exactly, are you supposed to
put a positive spin on things like bad performance, needing the tool
that is critical to Ubuntu to actually work / be stable / not break
other tools, etc?


That being said, well done for getting the incremental improvements
done. Good luck on fixing the rest!


Hobbsee

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Old 08-25-2008, 06:13 AM
Jonathan Marsden
 
Default Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

Christian Robottom Reis wrote:

> In reality [performance] was an overall goal, and one which we did
> pursue with a
> vengeance. The number of timeouts dropped to under 10 a day (!!) for the
> whole site over the 3.0 release, and dozens of pages which issues O(n)
> queries were fixed.

Cool! Sincere thanks for the info. That wasn't at all evident from the
feature list that was presented here (the one that started this discussion).

Is there a place where LP performance issues are measured and displayed,
online, for public view? Maybe a comparison of the previous codebase(s)
vs. the 3.0 codebase on several representative queries could be graphed,
or something? Then performance goals for the next version could be
discussed, and added, with some defined metrics and history to base them on?

> I do get the message: it's still not fast enough;
> however that does not mean that we haven't worked hard at improving it.

OK. All I had to go on was my personal (recent) experience with LP, and
the list of proposed features that started this discussion. Sounds like
I may have unwittingly missed reading about the recent performance
improvements ... where *should* I have read about them? Can you provide
a URL?

>> Indeed. Was the question "Should the next release of LP be primarily
>> about new features, or about performance, or about bug fixes?" seriously
>> addressed early in the development cycle of LP 3.0?
>
> It /is/ being addressed as we speak, and that's one of the reasons this
> conversation is important to me.

Great! THANKYOU! The list of features offered did not give me that
impression, or I misunderstood it, or both. Perhaps the LP team would
get more encouraging responses if others could "see" that this kind of
discussion is indeed happening? Is there a way to make it more visible?

> On the other hand, the feedback I get,
> despite me asking otherwise, doesn't really give me much to work on --

I can't resist: consistency, performance, and bug fixes: that's really
rather a *lot* to work on, if you ask me :-)

> there is too much talking down our process, where what I am looking for
> is more encouraging feedback.

Apologies if I've depressed or offended anyone by expressing an honest
opinion. That wasn't my intent at all! As I said at the start of my
earlier post, I'm just a newcomer... so do ignore me if I am just a
negative drag on LP!

Sometimes in project development, the views of a newcomer, a relative
outsider, can help provide a perspective that the insiders, oldtimers
and developers with solid technical knowledge of internal details, etc.
may not themselves have. That is the spirit in which I posted. I *am*
encouraged that this level of discussion is happening, which it didn't
initially appear to be, based on the original feature list and request
made on this mailing list.

I suspect that you'd get more useful feedback about LP if you asked this
community the kind of more general questions about LP that I have tried
to raise, rather than (only) presenting a list of features to
prioritize. Whether that feedback would be encouraging or not... that's
a rather different question, and the answer may depend on what you
define as encouraging. In one sense, just the fact that people respond
at all, taking the time to provide feedback, could be encouraging to the
LP team -- it means that LP is a software product that is important to
people!

Thanks for listening,

Jonathan

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