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Old 08-22-2008, 03:03 PM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

I understand that this was a very difficult task and as far as it goes, I
like generally the list. I find it unfortunate that you limited your
response to prioritizing the list you were given as the Launchpad
developer's list does not include what I consider the most important issues
that prevent using Launchpad from being a productive/enjoyable activity for
me.

In addition to your list I would ask them to consider (I would place all
these items higher than anything on their list)

1. Signed PPAs (this may be already planned pre-3.0). For me, I will not
use PPAs until this is fixed.

2. Faster. As a design goal, aim to have all page delivered to the client
in less than one second. I recognize this will be a substantial technical
challenge, but it is the biggest barrier I have to productivity on
Launchpad. I believe there are studies that suggest one second is the
threshold for user annoyance. I think it's about right for me (I'd love
500 milliseconds, but I doubt that's doable).

3. Stable and clear U/I. As I've said many time before, I feel the
Launchpad U/I has been getting harder and harder to understand and use.
The current one is substantially worse than 1.0 and 1.0 was substantially
worse than the pre-beta U/I (I know it was a tables based hack, but that
irrelevant to look and feel). If you aren't going to make it better, at
least please stop the churn.

Scott K

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Old 08-23-2008, 01:57 PM
Christian Robottom Reis
 
Default Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

On Wed, Aug 06, 2008 at 05:15:21PM +0200, Reinhard Tartler wrote:
> My current impression is that the list of specs is too long.

Thanks for following up and providing us with input. The point you make
above is dear to me -- we do really have lots of work to do. This ties
into another point you make:

> Having said this, I have a urgent plea: If you implement a spec, please,
> pretty please think about who is going to be affected by a change, and
> talk to them before starting to change launchpad. Any change that has
> the potential to have an effect on workflows we already agreed on is
> very likely to cause confusion and anti-sentiments. This already has
> happened in the past, unfortunately. And the answers I received so far
> support these observations.

I've struggled with this over the past two years, and in less than a
year we will be open sourced. I understand that existing end-users are
very much affected by changes, but on the other hand, we need to change
Launchpad in order to make it better. On top of that, when we do get
feedback it is very varied -- some users really like the changes, but
others, not that much. Additionally, if you've read `Don't Shoot the
Dog', you'll understand me when I say that the negative feedback we do
get doesn't encourage us to seek out more!

I have been thinking about ways of getting better input into what's
being changed in Launchpad. One thing that hurts us is that we do want
to keep our rate of change high, and any process around making a change
affects it. Our milestone lists are very public and it is today possible
to subscribe to a milestone and get notifications to bugs added and
removed from it. So it would not be impossible to keep track of what's
changing in Launchpad -- unfortunately, I think the traffic and level of
detail may not be for everybody.

One thing that will change for 3.0 is that our priority lists will be
publically available and you will be able to tell from them (and the
milestone) what is likely to be worked on in the near future. I would
like to find a good process to invite feedback on our changes. The
immediate thing that comes to mind is a period notification reminding
users of the current priority list and milestones. We could send one out
once a milestone. Does that sound like a good idea, or too much detail?
And who is the right channel and audience for such a notification?

A final note to MOTU specifically following upon the "varied feedback"
point I made above. We really do want your feedback. However, it makes
/my/ work much less effective when the feedback we do get is conflicting
or negative. Presenting balanced, consistent guidance to my team is the
best way for you to ensure we do what you want -- I know it's hard, but
it's really the right way to do it.
--
Christian Robottom Reis | http://async.com.br/~kiko/ | [+55 16] 3376 0125

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Old 08-23-2008, 03:11 PM
Christian Robottom Reis
 
Default Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 11:03:29AM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> I understand that this was a very difficult task and as far as it goes, I
> like generally the list. I find it unfortunate that you limited your
> response to prioritizing the list you were given as the Launchpad
> developer's list does not include what I consider the most important issues
> that prevent using Launchpad from being a productive/enjoyable activity for
> me.

The list Reinhard discussed with you was related to Bugs. I've taken
your second bits of feedback into account for our global priorities, but
signed PPAs were also his #1 pick for the Soyuz list, so you're well
covered.
--
Christian Robottom Reis | http://async.com.br/~kiko/ | [+55 16] 3376 0125

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Old 08-23-2008, 04:38 PM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 12:11:25 -0300 Christian Robottom Reis
<kiko@canonical.com> wrote:
>On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 11:03:29AM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>> I understand that this was a very difficult task and as far as it goes,
I
>> like generally the list. I find it unfortunate that you limited your
>> response to prioritizing the list you were given as the Launchpad
>> developer's list does not include what I consider the most important
issues
>> that prevent using Launchpad from being a productive/enjoyable activity
for
>> me.
>
>The list Reinhard discussed with you was related to Bugs. I've taken
>your second bits of feedback into account for our global priorities, but
>signed PPAs were also his #1 pick for the Soyuz list, so you're well
>covered.

Was there a request for input on the global priorities that I missed?

Scott K

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Old 08-23-2008, 04:45 PM
Christian Robottom Reis
 
Default Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 12:38:02PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> >The list Reinhard discussed with you was related to Bugs. I've taken
> >your second bits of feedback into account for our global priorities, but
> >signed PPAs were also his #1 pick for the Soyuz list, so you're well
> >covered.
>
> Was there a request for input on the global priorities that I missed?

No, and perhaps "common themes" would be a better name than "global
priorities". I collected these common themes from everybody's individual
feedback. Performance was the big #1 global issue; global UI complexity
was only mentioned by you and one other. I have written it down, though.
--
Christian Robottom Reis | http://async.com.br/~kiko/ | [+55 16] 3376 0125

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Old 08-23-2008, 05:03 PM
Reinhard Tartler
 
Default Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

Scott Kitterman <ubuntu@kitterman.com> writes:

>>The list Reinhard discussed with you was related to Bugs. I've taken
>>your second bits of feedback into account for our global priorities, but
>>signed PPAs were also his #1 pick for the Soyuz list, so you're well
>>covered.
>
> Was there a request for input on the global priorities that I missed?

No. The list of soyuz specs was rather short (compared to the list of
malone), and the things that were relevant for motu was pretty easy to
identify, IMO. That's why I didn't request for input on that list.
--
Gruesse/greetings,
Reinhard Tartler, KeyID 945348A4

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Old 08-23-2008, 05:43 PM
Reinhard Tartler
 
Default Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

Christian Robottom Reis <kiko@canonical.com> writes:

> I've struggled with this over the past two years, and in less than a
> year we will be open sourced. I understand that existing end-users are
> very much affected by changes, but on the other hand, we need to change
> Launchpad in order to make it better. On top of that, when we do get
> feedback it is very varied -- some users really like the changes, but
> others, not that much. Additionally, if you've read `Don't Shoot the
> Dog', you'll understand me when I say that the negative feedback we do
> get doesn't encourage us to seek out more!
>
> I have been thinking about ways of getting better input into what's
> being changed in Launchpad. One thing that hurts us is that we do want
> to keep our rate of change high, and any process around making a change
> affects it.

And I think here we have a clash. Developers need to rely on their
tools. They need to have confidence that the software and infrastructure
behaves exactly as expected. A C Programmer will be very annoyed if a
program suddenly doesn't compile or even worse: works in subtle other
ways. In Ubuntu, we are pretty much dependent on launchpad for pretty
much everything. We have quite some contributors, that work on a high
volume set of tasks, and changes to their tools (which includes UI) is
something that disturbes their 'normal workflow'.

On the other hand, I can of course understand that the launchpad crew
wants to improve launchpad and that changes need to be done. The best we
can do is to listen to each others and talk about things that really
annoy us.

> Our milestone lists are very public and it is today possible
> to subscribe to a milestone and get notifications to bugs added and
> removed from it. So it would not be impossible to keep track of what's
> changing in Launchpad -- unfortunately, I think the traffic and level of
> detail may not be for everybody.

That's an excellent point! This enables us to be notified about upcoming
changes, which solves one part of the problem I'm talking about.

> A final note to MOTU specifically following upon the "varied feedback"
> point I made above. We really do want your feedback. However, it makes
> /my/ work much less effective when the feedback we do get is conflicting
> or negative. Presenting balanced, consistent guidance to my team is the
> best way for you to ensure we do what you want -- I know it's hard, but
> it's really the right way to do it.

I can only support this. Please, fellow MOTUs, the launchpad guys
explicitly ask us for feedback so that they can plan their work. They do
want to work with us, so let's take this oppurtunity and talk
constructively to each other.

--
Gruesse/greetings,
Reinhard Tartler, KeyID 945348A4

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Old 08-23-2008, 07:09 PM
"Jordan Mantha"
 
Default Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 6:57 AM, Christian Robottom Reis
<kiko@canonical.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 06, 2008 at 05:15:21PM +0200, Reinhard Tartler wrote:
>> My current impression is that the list of specs is too long.
>
> Thanks for following up and providing us with input. The point you make
> above is dear to me -- we do really have lots of work to do. This ties
> into another point you make:
>
>> Having said this, I have a urgent plea: If you implement a spec, please,
>> pretty please think about who is going to be affected by a change, and
>> talk to them before starting to change launchpad. Any change that has
>> the potential to have an effect on workflows we already agreed on is
>> very likely to cause confusion and anti-sentiments. This already has
>> happened in the past, unfortunately. And the answers I received so far
>> support these observations.
>
> I've struggled with this over the past two years, and in less than a
> year we will be open sourced. I understand that existing end-users are
> very much affected by changes, but on the other hand, we need to change
> Launchpad in order to make it better. On top of that, when we do get
> feedback it is very varied -- some users really like the changes, but
> others, not that much. Additionally, if you've read `Don't Shoot the
> Dog', you'll understand me when I say that the negative feedback we do
> get doesn't encourage us to seek out more!

I'd like to reiterate what Reinhard has said about Ubuntu developer's
needing consistency. Almost *every* aspect of Ubuntu development uses
Launchpad to some extent and many processes rely completely on
consistent usage of Launchpad. For us Launchpad is a *critical* tool
to our work, so in a lot of respects we're more interesting with
existing feature working well than adding new features. I'm personally
be more interested in getting Launchpad to do the basics/fundamentals
(uploading, bugs, speed) correctly before adding any new features.
Basically put, it's annoying and disruptive for Ubuntu to be the beta
testers/guinea pigs for Launchpad development.

The second thing I think needs to be brought up is that it seems like
we're being consulted at the wrong time and that the feedback is
acquired at the wrong time. What Reinhard's talking about, I think, is
that it would be good if Launchpad devs interacted with us at the
design level. Sure, we can see what's going to be released, and we're
able to give prioritization of existing lists, but that's not really
the main issue. The main issue is that the feedback is much too late,
so much so as to make it virtually impossible for our feedback to make
any significant dent in the development momentum. Even when things
we'd like to see are getting implemented, often enough the
implementation is not consistent with how we'd like to use Launchpad.

-Jordan

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Old 08-23-2008, 09:22 PM
Jonathan Marsden
 
Default Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

Jordan Mantha wrote:

> For us Launchpad is a *critical* tool
> to our work, so in a lot of respects we're more interesting with
> existing feature working well than adding new features. I'm personally
> be more interested in getting Launchpad to do the basics/fundamentals
> (uploading, bugs, speed) correctly before adding any new features.

I'm just a newcomer to the world of Ubuntu development and Launchpad,
but I agree 100%. When 'ordinary' pages in LP say things like:

at least 77 queries issued in 7.48 seconds

(that was for https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu a few moments ago) there
would seem to be a *significant* performance issue. Yet improving
performance seemingly did not even appear on the list of proposed
features for 3.0 at all. Why not? Are there currently any stated
(public) performance goals for LP? How does LP currently measure up to
those goals, if they do exist? The existence of the "at least X queries
in Y seconds" comment suggests that at some stage, performance was
considered worth measuring... I submit that it remains very much worth
measuring, and improving.

Perhaps "No commonly used LP Bugs page should take more than 3 seconds
to be delivered to the user, on the official Ubuntu instantiation of LP"
would be a starting point? Maybe something like "No more than 20
database queries per page" wouldn't hurt, either? These are clear,
simple, and measurable goals. Meeting these two goals would, in my
view, do more for most MOTUs than implementing twenty of the proposed
features on the list!

Yes, the current UI may well have some issues, or be a source of
contention. Yes, there may well be more features that would be handy to
have, that are not yet implemented. But surely, a reliable, performant
and consistent LP would be *far* more valuable than an unreliable, slow,
and rapidly changing tool, for many LP users. Re-ordering a long list
of proposed new LP features will not change this at all.

> The second thing I think needs to be brought up is that it seems like
> we're being consulted at the wrong time and that the feedback is
> acquired at the wrong time.

Indeed. Was the question "Should the next release of LP be primarily
about new features, or about performance, or about bug fixes?" seriously
addressed early in the development cycle of LP 3.0? Was input from
MOTUs and the developer community sought and used at that stage? Why,
or why not? IMO, this is more important than any particular feature or
list of new features. If it is too late to address this now, can we
respectfully ask the LP development community to please consider
changing their process as a whole, so that it *does* get asked and
addressed appropriately in the next LP release cycle, and in all future
LP development cycles?

Jonathan


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Old 08-24-2008, 06:41 AM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 13:45:51 -0300 Christian Robottom Reis
<kiko@canonical.com> wrote:
>On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 12:38:02PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>> >The list Reinhard discussed with you was related to Bugs. I've taken
>> >your second bits of feedback into account for our global priorities, but
>> >signed PPAs were also his #1 pick for the Soyuz list, so you're well
>> >covered.
>>
>> Was there a request for input on the global priorities that I missed?
>
>No, and perhaps "common themes" would be a better name than "global
>priorities". I collected these common themes from everybody's individual
>feedback. Performance was the big #1 global issue; global UI complexity
>was only mentioned by you and one other. I have written it down, though.

I idled in #Launchpad for quite somee time after the latest U/I shuffle. I
saw a lot of people show up to complain. I only saw two people (not
involved in Launchpad development) speak in favor of it. I've heard a lot
of negative sentiment about it in Ubuntu channels too.

Since your process did not seek feedback on these gloabal issues, I find it
unsuprising you didn't get much.

Scott K

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