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Old 07-20-2008, 04:05 PM
Florian Weimer
 
Default Good communication with upstream is good idea

* Osamu Aoki:

> I found some of my packages are offered as a part of Ubuntu archive.

Same here. In my case (debsecan), it's a bit irresponsible because the
package doesn't really work on Ubuntu--but it's not readily apparent to
potential users. Furthermore, it uses server resources provided to
Debian, and not to Ubuntu.

What's the correct way to get it out of Unbuntu (universe)? I don't
want to relicense it, but if asking politely does not work, it seems to
be my only choice.

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Old 07-20-2008, 04:05 PM
Florian Weimer
 
Default Good communication with upstream is good idea

* Osamu Aoki:

> I found some of my packages are offered as a part of Ubuntu archive.

Same here. In my case (debsecan), it's a bit irresponsible because the
package doesn't really work on Ubuntu--but it's not readily apparent to
potential users. Furthermore, it uses server resources provided to
Debian, and not to Ubuntu.

What's the correct way to get it out of Unbuntu (universe)? I don't
want to relicense it, but if asking politely does not work, it seems to
be my only choice.


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Old 07-20-2008, 04:16 PM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default Good communication with upstream is good idea

On Sunday 20 July 2008 12:05, Florian Weimer wrote:
> * Osamu Aoki:
> > I found some of my packages are offered as a part of Ubuntu archive.
>
> Same here. In my case (debsecan), it's a bit irresponsible because the
> package doesn't really work on Ubuntu--but it's not readily apparent to
> potential users. Furthermore, it uses server resources provided to
> Debian, and not to Ubuntu.
>
> What's the correct way to get it out of Unbuntu (universe)? I don't
> want to relicense it, but if asking politely does not work, it seems to
> be my only choice.

The preferred way of 'asking politely' is a removal bug. The process is
described here:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/PackageArchive?highlight=%28archive%29#head-6a4a4d2ad0cc004c6199f465539e3bbc2239291e

or if you don't want to unwrap the long URL:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/5ce4jk

Other than reading the pacakge description just now, I'm not familiar with the
package. Would it make more sense for someone in Ubuntu to adapt the package
to work in the Ubuntu context than to remove it? It looks like it would be
useful there too.

Scott K


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Old 07-20-2008, 04:18 PM
"Caroline Ford"
 
Default Good communication with upstream is good idea

2008/7/20 Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de>:
> * Osamu Aoki:
>
>> I found some of my packages are offered as a part of Ubuntu archive.
>
> Same here. In my case (debsecan), it's a bit irresponsible because the
> package doesn't really work on Ubuntu--but it's not readily apparent to
> potential users. Furthermore, it uses server resources provided to
> Debian, and not to Ubuntu.
>
> What's the correct way to get it out of Unbuntu (universe)? I don't
> want to relicense it, but if asking politely does not work, it seems to
> be my only choice.

Packages are automatically synced from Debian as part of the
development process, if a package doesn't want to be in Ubuntu then as
far as I know there needs to be a manual override set up.

Relicensing your software to stop other people redistributing seems
like overkill to be honest, and no doubt would cause your package to
break the Debian Free Software Guidelines. You can't release under a
free license and keep 100% control over redistribution!

Caroline

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Old 07-20-2008, 04:18 PM
"Caroline Ford"
 
Default Good communication with upstream is good idea

2008/7/20 Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de>:
> * Osamu Aoki:
>
>> I found some of my packages are offered as a part of Ubuntu archive.
>
> Same here. In my case (debsecan), it's a bit irresponsible because the
> package doesn't really work on Ubuntu--but it's not readily apparent to
> potential users. Furthermore, it uses server resources provided to
> Debian, and not to Ubuntu.
>
> What's the correct way to get it out of Unbuntu (universe)? I don't
> want to relicense it, but if asking politely does not work, it seems to
> be my only choice.

Packages are automatically synced from Debian as part of the
development process, if a package doesn't want to be in Ubuntu then as
far as I know there needs to be a manual override set up.

Relicensing your software to stop other people redistributing seems
like overkill to be honest, and no doubt would cause your package to
break the Debian Free Software Guidelines. You can't release under a
free license and keep 100% control over redistribution!

Caroline


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Old 07-20-2008, 04:30 PM
Joey Hess
 
Default Good communication with upstream is good idea

Osamu Aoki wrote:
> I think we should encourage packager to contact upstream with simple
> "hello!" message and he (or myself) should be part of active upstream ML.

When I had upstreams, I always used to do this.

Often though, I'd wait until I had some patches to go with the "hello",
to make the message have a bit more value.

--
see shy jo, downstream from noone
 
Old 07-20-2008, 04:32 PM
Neil Williams
 
Default Good communication with upstream is good idea

On Sun, 2008-07-20 at 18:05 +0200, Florian Weimer wrote:
> * Osamu Aoki:
>
> > I found some of my packages are offered as a part of Ubuntu archive.

Have you found any that are not?

> Same here. In my case (debsecan), it's a bit irresponsible because the
> package doesn't really work on Ubuntu--but it's not readily apparent to
> potential users. Furthermore, it uses server resources provided to
> Debian, and not to Ubuntu.
>
> What's the correct way to get it out of Unbuntu (universe)? I don't
> want to relicense it, but if asking politely does not work, it seems to
> be my only choice.

How would you relicence it in a manner that prevents use in Ubuntu but
retains DFSG compatibility to remain in Debian main?

Trying to ban Ubuntu usage would, AFAICT, fall foul of "discrimination
against fields of endeavour".

I ask because emdebian-tools isn't intended for Ubuntu either. See [0] -
emdebian-tools also depends on server resources provided only by Debian
(in this case, the package repositories containing compatible packages
which I can use to generate cross-dependencies).

"emdebian-tools is not intended for Ubuntu but I don't have a way of
encoding that in the package. emdebian-tools is tightly integrated into
Debian (and Debian unstable in particular) and is, naturally, a Debian
native package (it was written to support Embedded Debian after all, not
UbuntuMobile). It isn't intended to work on Ubuntu because Ubuntu does
not provide the foreign packages needed for linking when cross building,
those come exclusively from Debian. Same with apt-cross, it is
exclusively designed for Debian, Debian mirrors and Debian buildd
configurations. How is emdebian-tools meant to cross-build for ARM on
Ubuntu when Ubuntu does not provide ARM packages and makes changes to
the equivalent Debian packages? To me it seems highly unlikely that
cross versions of Debian packages would install over a Ubuntu base,
especially when those packages are the typical debootstrap selection
that have a variety of changes in Ubuntu. I don't run Ubuntu, I have no
inclination to test for Ubuntu and as no-one else has offered, I cannot
support Ubuntu."

How many packages could be in this situation? I don't expect it to be
many. Some form of filter on the Ubuntu side may be necessary.
Alternatively, is there a package that I can list in Conflicts: that is
only present in Debian derivatives? Yes, any mechanism could be abused
but MOTU-people could always file bugs in the BTS about such usage.

[0] http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/serendipity/index.php?/archives/122-Migrating-Emdebian-changes-into-Debian,-not-Ubuntu.html

--


Neil Williams
=============
http://www.data-freedom.org/
http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/
 
Old 07-20-2008, 04:42 PM
Florian Weimer
 
Default Good communication with upstream is good idea

* Neil Williams:

>> What's the correct way to get it out of Unbuntu (universe)? I don't
>> want to relicense it, but if asking politely does not work, it seems to
>> be my only choice.
>
> How would you relicence it in a manner that prevents use in Ubuntu but
> retains DFSG compatibility to remain in Debian main?

Relicensing would involve moving the package to non-free, that's
correct. I could try some trademark stunt, but I don't want to spend
any money on a trademark registration.

I don't see why such cases (including yours) can't be resolved amicably.
It's not rocket science, after all.

> How many packages could be in this situation? I don't expect it to be
> many. Some form of filter on the Ubuntu side may be necessary.
> Alternatively, is there a package that I can list in Conflicts: that is
> only present in Debian derivatives? Yes, any mechanism could be abused
> but MOTU-people could always file bugs in the BTS about such usage.

MOTU bugs should end up in the Canonical bug tracker.

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Old 07-20-2008, 04:42 PM
Florian Weimer
 
Default Good communication with upstream is good idea

* Neil Williams:

>> What's the correct way to get it out of Unbuntu (universe)? I don't
>> want to relicense it, but if asking politely does not work, it seems to
>> be my only choice.
>
> How would you relicence it in a manner that prevents use in Ubuntu but
> retains DFSG compatibility to remain in Debian main?

Relicensing would involve moving the package to non-free, that's
correct. I could try some trademark stunt, but I don't want to spend
any money on a trademark registration.

I don't see why such cases (including yours) can't be resolved amicably.
It's not rocket science, after all.

> How many packages could be in this situation? I don't expect it to be
> many. Some form of filter on the Ubuntu side may be necessary.
> Alternatively, is there a package that I can list in Conflicts: that is
> only present in Debian derivatives? Yes, any mechanism could be abused
> but MOTU-people could always file bugs in the BTS about such usage.

MOTU bugs should end up in the Canonical bug tracker.


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Old 07-20-2008, 04:42 PM
"Bernhard R. Link"
 
Default Good communication with upstream is good idea

* Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org> [080720 14:57]:
> I think we should encourage packager to contact upstream with simple
> "hello!" message and he (or myself) should be part of active upstream ML.
>
> After all, we all are human. Friendly "hello" always helps people.
>
> I know this is not something we need to have as policy but as a part of
> best practice document, it is good to mention. For Debian, "Developers
> Reference". If I miss it in "Developers Reference", I am sorry.

Developers' Reference has only
http://www.debian.org/doc/developers-reference/developer-duties.html#upstream-coordination
but I guess saying hello is already implied in the title "Coordination with
upstream developers".

The New Maintainers' Guide has in the list of things to do when
packaging the first program:

"you should contact program's author(s) to check if they agree with
packaging it. It is important to be able to consult with author(s) about
the program in case of any program specific problems, so don't try to
package unmaintained pieces of software."

I think I saw it also in some instructions on how to ITP something but
I no longer find it.

But saying helo is not always easy. First of all one has to be able to
contact upstream (I once adopted a package where all email addresses of
upstream in the software and on the website there was none. Only behind
a link to another project was the mailinglist also for this package).

And then formulating such a mail is always a bit complicated. Not
everyone knows that package maintainers in Debian are really about
source modifications and saying helo can easily result in being offered
the upstream maintainer hat.

Hochachtungsvoll,
Bernhard R. Link
--
"Never contain programs so few bugs, as when no debugging tools are available!"
Niklaus Wirth


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