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Old 06-04-2008, 02:42 PM
"Jeff Schroeder"
 
Default merging virtualbox-ose-modules into linux-ubuntu-modules

Since the earlier part of the Hardy development cycle after virtualbox
was put in the repositories there has been
nothing but trouble with it. This leaves users of virtualbox with a
very bad taste in their mouth. It has even caused
some to switch away from Ubuntu as their host OS when using virtualbox
to virtualize other operating systems.

On every single kernel upgrade, there are problems for virtualbox
users. The reason is because the virtualbox
modules are kernel specific and live in universe. A kernel SRU comes
in and the SRU team uploads the new
package. The system sees an update, downloads, and installs the new
kernel. This in turn creates a new
/lib/modules/$kernel_ver directory. modprobe looks in this directory
for the vboxdrv module, but that module
is in /lib/modules/$old_kernel_ver so it bails out.

Short of an ABI bump, the vboxdrv module seems to load fine if
manually inserted with insmod. However,
this is not an option for "new" linux users. It also seems
unacceptable for virtualbox to break after every single
kernel upgrade

There seem to only be 3 sane approaches to fix this issue:
- Move virtualbox-ose-modules over to dkms
- Merge virtualbox-ose-modules into linux-ubuntu-modules and the
problem goes away transparently
- Put big warnings everywhere that say Ubuntu doesn't treat Sun
VirtualBox as a first class citezen and it should not be used

Does anyone care about VirtualBox or is it an afterthought? This is
meant to be a constructive rant.

jeff@omniscience:~$ uname -r
2.6.24-18-generic
jeff@omniscience:~$ apt-cache search virtualbox-ose-modules | grep generic
virtualbox-ose-modules-2.6.24-16-generic - virtualbox-ose module for
linux-image-2.6.24-16-generic
virtualbox-ose-modules-generic - virtualbox-ose module for linux-image-generic
virtualbox-ose-modules-2.6.24-17-generic - virtualbox-ose module for
linux-image-2.6.24-17-generic



--
Jeff Schroeder

Don't drink and derive, alcohol and analysis don't mix.
http://www.digitalprognosis.com

--
kernel-team mailing list
kernel-team@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kernel-team
 
Old 06-04-2008, 03:14 PM
Mario Limonciello
 
Default merging virtualbox-ose-modules into linux-ubuntu-modules

Hi Jeff:



Actually as per my understanding, Sun is already enabling DKMS on the
modules from their closed source latest version (1.6).* I would think
it makes most sense to follow suit and enable these modules via DKMS in
Ubuntu too on the OSE.



This is then significantly less work for the kernel maintainers to have
to watch over, and instead any MOTU can touch them and fix bugs.



Regards,



Jeff Schroeder wrote:

Since the earlier part of the Hardy development cycle after virtualbox
was put in the repositories there has been
nothing but trouble with it. This leaves users of virtualbox with a
very bad taste in their mouth. It has even caused
some to switch away from Ubuntu as their host OS when using virtualbox
to virtualize other operating systems.

On every single kernel upgrade, there are problems for virtualbox
users. The reason is because the virtualbox
modules are kernel specific and live in universe. A kernel SRU comes
in and the SRU team uploads the new
package. The system sees an update, downloads, and installs the new
kernel. This in turn creates a new
/lib/modules/$kernel_ver directory. modprobe looks in this directory
for the vboxdrv module, but that module
is in /lib/modules/$old_kernel_ver so it bails out.

Short of an ABI bump, the vboxdrv module seems to load fine if
manually inserted with insmod. However,
this is not an option for "new" linux users. It also seems
unacceptable for virtualbox to break after every single
kernel upgrade

There seem to only be 3 sane approaches to fix this issue:
- Move virtualbox-ose-modules over to dkms
- Merge virtualbox-ose-modules into linux-ubuntu-modules and the
problem goes away transparently
- Put big warnings everywhere that say Ubuntu doesn't treat Sun
VirtualBox as a first class citezen and it should not be used

Does anyone care about VirtualBox or is it an afterthought? This is
meant to be a constructive rant.

jeff@omniscience:~$ uname -r
2.6.24-18-generic
jeff@omniscience:~$ apt-cache search virtualbox-ose-modules | grep generic
virtualbox-ose-modules-2.6.24-16-generic - virtualbox-ose module for
linux-image-2.6.24-16-generic
virtualbox-ose-modules-generic - virtualbox-ose module for linux-image-generic
virtualbox-ose-modules-2.6.24-17-generic - virtualbox-ose module for
linux-image-2.6.24-17-generic







--


Mario Limonciello

Dell | Linux
Engineering

mario_limonciello@dell.com





--
kernel-team mailing list
kernel-team@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kernel-team
 
Old 06-04-2008, 03:22 PM
Ben Collins
 
Default merging virtualbox-ose-modules into linux-ubuntu-modules

> Short of an ABI bump, the vboxdrv module seems to load fine if
> manually inserted with insmod. However,
> this is not an option for "new" linux users. It also seems
> unacceptable for virtualbox to break after every single
> kernel upgrade
>
> There seem to only be 3 sane approaches to fix this issue:
> - Move virtualbox-ose-modules over to dkms

This is the suggested method. It is also transparent (just as much so as
the next option).

> - Merge virtualbox-ose-modules into linux-ubuntu-modules and the
> problem goes away transparently

Can't do this. Putting vm monitor modules into our main packaging has
caused way too many problems already (vmware, vbox and the like).
Matching our pre-installed vmmon to the userspace application is
extremely difficult, and the incompatibilities for new userspace
application ABI to the vmmon ABI causes even more problems than you are
trying to solve.

> - Put big warnings everywhere that say Ubuntu doesn't treat Sun
> VirtualBox as a first class citezen and it should not be used
>
> Does anyone care about VirtualBox or is it an afterthought? This is
> meant to be a constructive rant.

Let's not get melodramatic. All virtual machine vendors suffer the same
problem. VMWare has taken a good step toward making this easy for the
user in their new beta versions where the GUI handles the recompilation,
and thus, makes them distro agnostic on how they handle this problem.

Of course we care, but virtual machine vendors (both proprietary and
open source) have a self inflicted kernel+vmmon+virtual-machine ABI to
stick to, and mixing it with kernel ABI matching just doubles the
problems. DKMS (or something similar) is the preferred and desired way
to resolve this if the vm isn't going to handle it itself.

> jeff@omniscience:~$ uname -r
> 2.6.24-18-generic
> jeff@omniscience:~$ apt-cache search virtualbox-ose-modules | grep generic
> virtualbox-ose-modules-2.6.24-16-generic - virtualbox-ose module for
> linux-image-2.6.24-16-generic
> virtualbox-ose-modules-generic - virtualbox-ose module for linux-image-generic
> virtualbox-ose-modules-2.6.24-17-generic - virtualbox-ose module for
> linux-image-2.6.24-17-generic
>
>
>
> --
> Jeff Schroeder
>
> Don't drink and derive, alcohol and analysis don't mix.
> http://www.digitalprognosis.com
>


--
kernel-team mailing list
kernel-team@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kernel-team
 
Old 06-04-2008, 03:46 PM
"Jeff Schroeder"
 
Default merging virtualbox-ose-modules into linux-ubuntu-modules

On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 8:22 AM, Ben Collins <ben.collins@canonical.com> wrote:
...snip...
> Of course we care, but virtual machine vendors (both proprietary and
> open source) have a self inflicted kernel+vmmon+virtual-machine ABI to
> stick to, and mixing it with kernel ABI matching just doubles the
> problems. DKMS (or something similar) is the preferred and desired way
> to resolve this if the vm isn't going to handle it itself.
>
Is there going to be any work to use dkms once the 1.6 version of virtualbox
and the associated modules are uploaded to the Intrepid repositories? This
is a problem that isn't new and yet it happens over and over again. The point
of this email was to address the problem and suggest possible courses of
action.

It just surprised me that after happening several times during Hardy
development[1],
the same problem popped up again in hardy stable. Even if the package
is in universe
this seems crazy in an LTS release.

In short, the process is wrong and I'm trying to fix it.

[1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/virtualbox-ose/+bug/179807


--
Jeff Schroeder

Don't drink and derive, alcohol and analysis don't mix.
http://www.digitalprognosis.com

--
kernel-team mailing list
kernel-team@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kernel-team
 
Old 06-04-2008, 04:03 PM
Tim Gardner
 
Default merging virtualbox-ose-modules into linux-ubuntu-modules

I agree with Mario. DKMS is gaining traction with Intrepid wherein it
will be used to distribute ATI and nVidia graphics drivers, e.g., they
are no longer packaged in LRM. I see no reason why the virtualbox
package couldn't do the same. In fact, you should do it for Hardy since
the ABI _will_ change again. -19.33 will be in -proposed by tomorrow. It
seems that each round of CVE updates also forces an ABI bump.

rtg

Mario Limonciello wrote:
> Hi Jeff:
>
> Actually as per my understanding, Sun is already enabling DKMS on the modules
> from their closed source latest version (1.6). I would think it makes most
> sense to follow suit and enable these modules via DKMS in Ubuntu too on the OSE.
>
> This is then significantly less work for the kernel maintainers to have to watch
> over, and instead any MOTU can touch them and fix bugs.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeff Schroeder wrote:
>> Since the earlier part of the Hardy development cycle after virtualbox
>> was put in the repositories there has been
>> nothing but trouble with it. This leaves users of virtualbox with a
>> very bad taste in their mouth. It has even caused
>> some to switch away from Ubuntu as their host OS when using virtualbox
>> to virtualize other operating systems.
>>
>> On every single kernel upgrade, there are problems for virtualbox
>> users. The reason is because the virtualbox
>> modules are kernel specific and live in universe. A kernel SRU comes
>> in and the SRU team uploads the new
>> package. The system sees an update, downloads, and installs the new
>> kernel. This in turn creates a new
>> /lib/modules/$kernel_ver directory. modprobe looks in this directory
>> for the vboxdrv module, but that module
>> is in /lib/modules/$old_kernel_ver so it bails out.
>>
>> Short of an ABI bump, the vboxdrv module seems to load fine if
>> manually inserted with insmod. However,
>> this is not an option for "new" linux users. It also seems
>> unacceptable for virtualbox to break after every single
>> kernel upgrade
>>
>> There seem to only be 3 sane approaches to fix this issue:
>> - Move virtualbox-ose-modules over to dkms
>> - Merge virtualbox-ose-modules into linux-ubuntu-modules and the
>> problem goes away transparently
>> - Put big warnings everywhere that say Ubuntu doesn't treat Sun
>> VirtualBox as a first class citezen and it should not be used
>>
>> Does anyone care about VirtualBox or is it an afterthought? This is
>> meant to be a constructive rant.
>>
>> jeff@omniscience:~$ uname -r
>> 2.6.24-18-generic
>> jeff@omniscience:~$ apt-cache search virtualbox-ose-modules | grep generic
>> virtualbox-ose-modules-2.6.24-16-generic - virtualbox-ose module for
>> linux-image-2.6.24-16-generic
>> virtualbox-ose-modules-generic - virtualbox-ose module for linux-image-generic
>> virtualbox-ose-modules-2.6.24-17-generic - virtualbox-ose module for
>> linux-image-2.6.24-17-generic
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Mario Limonciello
> *Dell | Linux Engineering*
> mario_limonciello@dell.com
>


--
Tim Gardner tim.gardner@ubuntu.com

--
kernel-team mailing list
kernel-team@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kernel-team
 
Old 06-04-2008, 05:08 PM
Ben Collins
 
Default merging virtualbox-ose-modules into linux-ubuntu-modules

On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 08:46 -0700, Jeff Schroeder wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 8:22 AM, Ben Collins <ben.collins@canonical.com> wrote:
> ...snip...
> > Of course we care, but virtual machine vendors (both proprietary and
> > open source) have a self inflicted kernel+vmmon+virtual-machine ABI to
> > stick to, and mixing it with kernel ABI matching just doubles the
> > problems. DKMS (or something similar) is the preferred and desired way
> > to resolve this if the vm isn't going to handle it itself.
> >
> Is there going to be any work to use dkms once the 1.6 version of virtualbox
> and the associated modules are uploaded to the Intrepid repositories? This
> is a problem that isn't new and yet it happens over and over again. The point
> of this email was to address the problem and suggest possible courses of
> action.

That's up to the maintainer of that package, or anyone else willing
(you?) to do the work. The kernel team does not directly handle it.

> It just surprised me that after happening several times during Hardy
> development[1],
> the same problem popped up again in hardy stable. Even if the package
> is in universe
> this seems crazy in an LTS release.
>
> In short, the process is wrong and I'm trying to fix it.
>
> [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/virtualbox-ose/+bug/179807
>
>


--
kernel-team mailing list
kernel-team@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kernel-team
 
Old 06-04-2008, 05:49 PM
"Jeff Schroeder"
 
Default merging virtualbox-ose-modules into linux-ubuntu-modules

On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 10:08 AM, Ben Collins <ben.collins@canonical.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 08:46 -0700, Jeff Schroeder wrote:
>> On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 8:22 AM, Ben Collins <ben.collins@canonical.com> wrote:
>> ...snip...
>> > Of course we care, but virtual machine vendors (both proprietary and
>> > open source) have a self inflicted kernel+vmmon+virtual-machine ABI to
>> > stick to, and mixing it with kernel ABI matching just doubles the
>> > problems. DKMS (or something similar) is the preferred and desired way
>> > to resolve this if the vm isn't going to handle it itself.
>> >
>> Is there going to be any work to use dkms once the 1.6 version of virtualbox
>> and the associated modules are uploaded to the Intrepid repositories? This
>> is a problem that isn't new and yet it happens over and over again. The point
>> of this email was to address the problem and suggest possible courses of
>> action.
>
> That's up to the maintainer of that package, or anyone else willing
> (you?) to do the work. The kernel team does not directly handle it.

Time to put on the motu hat and get to learning. Thanks for the input.




>> It just surprised me that after happening several times during Hardy
>> development[1],
>> the same problem popped up again in hardy stable. Even if the package
>> is in universe
>> this seems crazy in an LTS release.
>>
>> In short, the process is wrong and I'm trying to fix it.
>>
>> [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/virtualbox-ose/+bug/179807
>>
>>
>
>



--
Jeff Schroeder

Don't drink and derive, alcohol and analysis don't mix.
http://www.digitalprognosis.com

--
kernel-team mailing list
kernel-team@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kernel-team
 

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