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Old 02-09-2008, 05:48 AM
"Conrad Knauer"
 
Default Miro ( New Programs for Hardy?)

On Nov 14, 2007 3:16 AM, Conrad Knauer <atheoi@gmail.com> wrote:

> Miro (GPL v2 or later; currently in universe) has reached its 1.0 milestone
> http://www.getmiro.com/blog/2007/11/miro-10-is-here/
> I note that its getting praise from the press
> http://techland.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2007/11/13/the-future-of-internet-tv/
> I've used it in the past and its quite interesting.

Just thought I'd mention that Miro was the subject focused on in a
Groklaw interview:
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20080207173143823

Some points to note:

---
Q: Can you tell me how many downloads you've had of the Miro player up to now?

Nicholas Reville: Sure. Last year we had over two million downloads --

Q: Two million!

Nicholas Reville: -- in 2007, and we've been growing pretty steadily
with each new release. We're getting more users as the product gets
better and better. And we're expecting to have, you know, four or five
or more million more downloads this year.
---

Q: Now, it is a multi-platform environment. Would you be able to tell
us what the breakdown is between Windows, Mac, GNU/Linux?

Nicholas Reville: I don't have exact numbers; it's actually a little
bit harder to calculate than it sounds, but it's something like 70%
Windows, 20% Mac, and maybe 10% Linux. I think we tend to have more
Mac and Linux users than the population at large, because we're
attracting early adopters, people that are more tech-savvy, that are
following kind of the latest trends.

But we're also trying to build something that really appeals to a mass
audience, that's easy for people to use, that's easy to recommend to
their friends, and so we're hopeful that we're able to both attract
the early adopters and reach a mass audience.
---

It certainly sounds like the sort of 'killer app' that would attract
people to Ubuntu.

If Miro can't be added to Hardy, would it be possible for Hardy+1?

CK

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Old 02-09-2008, 05:55 AM
"Emmet Hikory"
 
Default Miro ( New Programs for Hardy?)

Conrad Knauer wrote:
> > Miro (GPL v2 or later; currently in universe) has reached its 1.0 milestone
> > http://www.getmiro.com/blog/2007/11/miro-10-is-here/
> > I note that its getting praise from the press
> > http://techland.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2007/11/13/the-future-of-internet-tv/
> > I've used it in the past and its quite interesting.
<...>
> It certainly sounds like the sort of 'killer app' that would attract
> people to Ubuntu.
>
> If Miro can't be added to Hardy, would it be possible for Hardy+1?

Miro is available in Ubuntu 7.10, and Miro 1.0 is currently in the
hardy repositories.

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Old 02-09-2008, 06:05 AM
"Conrad Knauer"
 
Default Miro ( New Programs for Hardy?)

On Feb 9, 2008 12:55 AM, Emmet Hikory <emmet.hikory@gmail.com> wrote:

> > It certainly sounds like the sort of 'killer app' that would attract
> > people to Ubuntu.
> >
> > If Miro can't be added to Hardy, would it be possible for Hardy+1?
>
> Miro is available in Ubuntu 7.10, and Miro 1.0 is currently in the
> hardy repositories.

Apologies; I meant to ask: 'If Miro can't be added to the default
Hardy install (e.g. added to ubuntu-desktop), would it be possible for
Hardy+1?'

CK

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Old 02-09-2008, 06:15 AM
Sarah Hobbs
 
Default Miro ( New Programs for Hardy?)

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Hash: SHA1

Conrad Knauer wrote:
> On Feb 9, 2008 12:55 AM, Emmet Hikory <emmet.hikory@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> It certainly sounds like the sort of 'killer app' that would attract
>>> people to Ubuntu.
>>>
>>> If Miro can't be added to Hardy, would it be possible for Hardy+1?
>> Miro is available in Ubuntu 7.10, and Miro 1.0 is currently in the
>> hardy repositories.
>
> Apologies; I meant to ask: 'If Miro can't be added to the default
> Hardy install (e.g. added to ubuntu-desktop), would it be possible for
> Hardy+1?'
>
> CK
>

Forgive me for asking this - but is the market for watching internet TV
really that big? I've only seen *one* person ever actually watching it.
I don't see many people coming in and asking "how do i watch internet
tv?". Besides that, why would one *want* to go for internet TV, when
there are bigger tv's elsewhere, where you can watch what you like there.

Perhaps it's due to being Australian, with the associated low
bandwidths, but I don't see this as a large market, which would be
required for it to take up CD space.

Hobbsee
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Old 02-09-2008, 07:11 AM
"Conrad Knauer"
 
Default Miro ( New Programs for Hardy?)

On Feb 9, 2008 1:15 AM, Sarah Hobbs <hobbsee@ubuntu.com> wrote:

> > 'If Miro can't be added to the default Hardy install (e.g. added to ubuntu-desktop), would it be possible for Hardy+1?'
>
> Forgive me for asking this - but is the market for watching internet TV really that big?

No no, its a valid question

I would describe it as an emerging market (note the doubling download
rate I quoted from the Groklaw interview as well as the proprietary
competitors mentioned in the linked full interview, such as Joost and
Hulu).

> I've only seen *one* person ever actually watching it.
> I don't see many people coming in and asking "how do i watch internet
> tv?". Besides that, why would one *want* to go for internet TV, when
> there are bigger tv's elsewhere, where you can watch what you like there.

Time-shifting springs to mind (download overnight, watch in the morning).

Place-shifting (e.g. what if you want to watch something while
commuting on a train or bus?)

Also, the content available is often not available via regular TV
stations/cable (e.g. niche programs; Miro claims over 2500
'channels').

> Perhaps it's due to being Australian, with the associated low bandwidths,

Ah, low speed internet would be a problem, but then again, that's a
general problem for Ubuntu as a whole, ne? Updates for example-
downloading new kernel or Firefox versions would get annoying if one
didn't set them to d/l during idle time (e.g. overnight).

> but I don't see this as a large market, which would be required for it to take up CD space.

What would define a "large market"?

Should Ubuntu only include software reactively rather than watching
for emerging trends?

If Ubuntu switched to a DVD-based release, would you include it?

CK

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Old 02-09-2008, 07:27 AM
"Emmet Hikory"
 
Default Miro ( New Programs for Hardy?)

Sarah Hobbs wrote:
> > 'If Miro can't be added to the default Hardy install (e.g. added to ubuntu-desktop), would it be possible for Hardy+1?'
>
> Forgive me for asking this - but is the market for watching internet TV really that big?

Conrad Knauer replied:
> What would define a "large market"?
>
> Should Ubuntu only include software reactively rather than watching
> for emerging trends?

Ubuntu tends to include as much software as possible, with as much
of that as can fit included in the default CD. What gets included in
the default CD is more a matter of providing working base
functionality for as many users as possible, rather than those
features that may be interesting (although this often includes
interesting things).

> If Ubuntu switched to a DVD-based release, would you include it?

Ubuntu does have a DVD release, on which miro is included. This
release is not recommended for most users, as it is only in a very
rare case that all of the software included on the DVD is interesting
for the user. In the vast majority of cases, it is easier and less
expensive for the user to install from the CD and then install any
specific additional software desired from the network.

Regarding the presence of miro on the default CD, there are a few
steps to the process of possible, inclusion. Anyone is welcome to
pursue these steps, but due to the limited size of a CD, not all
programs submitted will necessarily be included.

1) File a MainInclusionReport for the candidate
2) Once the candidate is in main, investigate test-building CDs
containing the candidate: this often might require removal of
something.
3) Once a CD build using the new candidate works, investigate what
needed to be removed to determine the tradeoff
4) Present the results of this research to the developers as a
candidate change to the CD build.

The above tends to be a fair amount of work, and can be quite
frustrating due to the limit of what can be on the CD, the competition
with other software seeking to be included on the CD, and the time and
number of approvals required.

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Old 02-09-2008, 09:29 AM
Vincenzo Ciancia
 
Default Miro ( New Programs for Hardy?)

On 09/02/2008 Conrad Knauer wrote:
> Apologies; I meant to ask: 'If Miro can't be added to the default
> Hardy install (e.g. added to ubuntu-desktop), would it be possible for
> Hardy+1?'

I personally love miro but can't still recommend it to my friends since
it really crashes a lot on ubuntu. Including such an application on the
default cd would,in my opinion, be not-so-good publicity for ubuntu.

Vincenzo

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Old 02-09-2008, 01:45 PM
"Vadim Peretokin"
 
Default Miro ( New Programs for Hardy?)

Miro is a great program, but it was barely working on my 1.5Ghz, 512ram laptop. Pretty much unusable. So, it wouldn't really fit the min ubuntu requirements and make some people unhappy. Not necessary...


On Feb 9, 2008 10:29 AM, Vincenzo Ciancia <ciancia@di.unipi.it> wrote:

On 09/02/2008 Conrad Knauer wrote:
> Apologies; I meant to ask: 'If Miro can't be added to the default
> Hardy install (e.g. added to ubuntu-desktop), would it be possible for
> Hardy+1?'


I personally love miro but can't still recommend it to my friends since
it really crashes a lot on ubuntu. Including such an application on the
default cd would,in my opinion, be not-so-good publicity for ubuntu.


Vincenzo

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Old 02-09-2008, 02:43 PM
"Dylan McCall"
 
Default Miro ( New Programs for Hardy?)

Miro is a wonderful idea, and the Miro guide is an excellent web site, but the program itself is a painfully bloated (and buggy) pig. The word "refactor" echoes in the back of my mind every time I use it -- which is very often, because it's still an excellent concept!

Alas, it should definitely not have hit 1.0 until the program stopped creating duplicate entries for torrent downloads, and allowed for Miro channels to change their feed URL on the fly. (As it is, since the Google Tech Talks location changed, the channel is broken for every past subscriber).


The front end could also use some more imagination. Possibly a bigger division between front and back ends would do the program well. I, for one, would love to navigate my Miro library with Elisa, for example, while still having a daemon (or something!) download my stuff in the background. At the moment, it is laid out just like an RSS feed reader with pictures, which defeats the purpose entirely. The only reason I really use Miro over an RSS reader, is because it integrates with that fancy guide web site. A problem right now is that opening a channel tends to take a few seconds (even on a 2.2 gHz Intel Core 2 Duo), yet that is the only way at the moment to list downloaded shows in categories. The interface has me thinking way too much about RSS feeds, what it should be downloading, wondering where things are and why one download that I thought I deleted a month ago keeps reappearing.


As for the good part... check out the Google Tech Talks and TED channels. Googletechtalks is just an RSS feed of YouTube, but it is really nice and easy to get those through Miro since YouTube conceals their RSS subscribe buttons so that it takes ages to find them. Thanks to the Miro guide, things like that are really quickly discoverable, which is one of the things that makes TV such an intuitive experience; when people flip channels, they may find interest in shows they had no idea existed! Unfortunately, the guide still necessitates direct searching, but areas like the Popular Channels list help greatly.

There is even a Yoga channel, if I remember rightly.

Miro is looking to do for TV what the Internet is doing for text-based and interactive entertainment: Bringing the work, (and therefore the profits), closer to the content creators. This means less shady business practises, fewer businesses who base their entire profit model on luck and / or messing with their customers (*Cough* Retail), more open content, and - most importantly - less expensive content. A program like Miro (or really just the Internet TV idea in general) makes broadcast easier and more accessible than through a big TV network. This may take a while, as people are still very much hooked to the big / evil networks like Fox, but there is nothing to lose - only things to gain from the (potentially) infinitely superior infrastructure (when Miro loses its bugs). Internet services are the new medium for broadcast of content, and they have proven their worth in durability, flexibility and generally low cost. There are already some Internet radio channels that blast their analog broadcast competition out of the water, and online news sites are far easier to deal with than newspapers since they only consume space and time when you tell them to (ie: They have something interesting). Search engines like Google can integrate beautifully with all this stuff because every server talks in the same way, no matter what its owners are broadcasting. Internet TV is going to happen.


...Anyway, Miro is a fantastic program, but not ready for default. Yet. I do agree, however, that it may be a neat idea in the future



Bye,
--Dylan McCall

PS: In my opinion, naturally.



On Sat, Feb 9, 2008 at 6:45 AM, Vadim Peretokin <vperetokin@gmail.com> wrote:

Miro is a great program, but it was barely working on my 1.5Ghz, 512ram laptop. Pretty much unusable. So, it wouldn't really fit the min ubuntu requirements and make some people unhappy. Not necessary...



On Feb 9, 2008 10:29 AM, Vincenzo Ciancia <ciancia@di.unipi.it> wrote:


On 09/02/2008 Conrad Knauer wrote:
> Apologies; I meant to ask: 'If Miro can't be added to the default
> Hardy install (e.g. added to ubuntu-desktop), would it be possible for
> Hardy+1?'



I personally love miro but can't still recommend it to my friends since
it really crashes a lot on ubuntu. Including such an application on the
default cd would,in my opinion, be not-so-good publicity for ubuntu.



Vincenzo

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Old 02-09-2008, 04:54 PM
"Conrad Knauer"
 
Default Miro ( New Programs for Hardy?)

On Feb 9, 2008 4:29 AM, Vincenzo Ciancia <ciancia@di.unipi.it> wrote:

> I personally love miro but can't still recommend it to my friends since
> it really crashes a lot on ubuntu. Including such an application on the
> default cd would,in my opinion, be not-so-good publicity for ubuntu.

Out of curiosity, what version are you using? (0.9.8 from gutsy or the
current 1.1.2 from Miro's repository) Other people mentioned that its
a bit of a resource hog (Vadim Peretokin wrote: "it was barely working
on my 1.5Ghz, 512ram laptop") what kind of system do you have?

And, generally speaking, what's the 'average computer' Ubuntu is
targeting? The System Requirements listed on
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/SystemRequirements must
be below what most people use Ubuntu on...

CK

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