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Sebastian Heinlein 11-19-2007 11:41 AM

Our best foot forward
 
Am Sonntag, den 18.11.2007, 08:34 -0500 schrieb Patrick:
> I see it now. I never noticed it there. Is there any reason it cannot
> also be placed under the right click too?-Patrick

I don't think that this is a very often needed feature. We want to keep
the menu short.
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Patrick 11-19-2007 12:19 PM

Our best foot forward
 
I spent several hours last week writing emails regarding making
improvements to how packages are configured and how tutorials are done.

I realize now that writing "helper scripts" that would be a hybrid of an
installation script and a tutorial might not be the best way to get the
job done.

It would be much better if the "configure" option would take care of
this and perhaps the "help and support" area search results provided
specific links to useful Ubuntu specific online information.

I am disappointed that my efforts have come to nothing.

I would recommend more useablility studies to determine whether the
present set up is actually being found and utilized.

I doubt that Ubuntu's/Linux's best features are being put forward. I
suspect they are only being found by those who are willing to dig around
on the net for hours and willing to read trough terse MAN pages.

Good Bye-Patrick

Sebastian Heinlein wrote:
> Am Sonntag, den 18.11.2007, 08:34 -0500 schrieb Patrick:
>
>> I see it now. I never noticed it there. Is there any reason it cannot
>> also be placed under the right click too?-Patrick
>>
>
> I don't think that this is a very often needed feature. We want to keep
> the menu short.
>


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Matthew Paul Thomas 11-19-2007 10:50 PM

Our best foot forward
 
On Nov 20, 2007, at 2:19 AM, Patrick wrote:

...
It would be much better if the "configure" option would take care of
this and perhaps the "help and support" area search results provided
specific links to useful Ubuntu specific online information.

I am disappointed that my efforts have come to nothing.
...


If Ubuntu-specific help is lacking, you can get involved with the
Ubuntu Documentation Team in writing it. <http://doc.ubuntu.com/>


If the help is present but is not being found in a search, please
report that as a bug. <https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/yelp/+bugs>



I would recommend more useablility studies to determine whether the
present set up is actually being found and utilized.
...


That's another way you can help: carry out user testing.
<https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UsabilityTesting>

Cheers
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Patrick 11-19-2007 11:50 PM

Our best foot forward
 
-Ubuntu documentation is so much better then it used to be, I don't
think it is lacking in terms of the casual user.
-I am not having trouble searching for documentation.
-These usability tests are nice but not quite applicable to the concerns
I have.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been writing to this list because I want to help. The last think
I want to do is hurt anyones feeling or discourage anyone but I have
some constructive criticism.

I love Ubuntu and I can use it quite well now but here again are some
experiences and thoughts.

I had a lot of trouble configuring services in the past, in particular
my first one vsftpd, was hard as it was my first manual edit of a
configuration file. I can now edit all kinds of these files. It's easy
once you do one, an 8 year old could do this.

The problem is it's not obvious to the first time user. I could carry
out usability studies with friends and family but really I don't think
anyone is ready to set up an nfs, ftp or samba server in the first 10-20
hours. A usability study beyond a few hours is not practical for family
and friends.

Here is the thing and I don't mean to be rude but what is it that Ubuntu
is expected to be used for. Emailing and surfing the net? writing text
documents? If this is all someone wants why would they take the time to
learn Ubuntu. Learning a new OS is really time consuming.

We are not just competing with Vista but with every Windows version from
let's say Windows 98 onwards. Ubuntu is free but if someone wants to set
up a new computer then they are very likely to be able to get a hold of
an old Windows version, legal or not for free too.

With Windows 98 you could still set up thunderbird, firefox, gimp,
blender, open office, etc etc. Why bother with Ubuntu if you just want
some basic stuff. You will likely have family members who can help you
with Windows problems, you probably have experience with it somewhere
else and you are less likely to run into hardware problems and filetype
problems like flash. When the world of the online desktop arrives these
programs will become even more irrelevant.

If this is the market we are chasing then this is a big problem. The
thing is Ubuntu is so much more then a way to surf the net and answer
emails. Comparing Windows to Ubuntu is like comparing a glossy pamphlet
to an encyclopedia with the front cover torn off. Ubuntu has content but
it is not easy to find. There is enormous power in it. Ubuntu has saved
my business lots of money and opened up all kinds of doors for me. It is
perfect for business.

We should be putting forth what Ubuntu can do that Windows cannot. It is
the ability to set up so many services and customize so many things that
makes it amazing. Most of this still needs to be done at the terminal
though. People need to be able to use it's rich set of features without
so much suffering.

All of my suggestions seem to be rebuffed and the general feedback I am
getting is that everything is already the way it needs to be. When I
said useability studies what I should have said was useability studies
for system administrators and power users, not Moms, Dads and Sisters
who want to surf the web and write emails.

Command power and "customizability" is our best foot, it is not being
put forward.

My writings don't seem to be of any help, I have a patent in the works,
if things work out I will contribute financially instead-patrick





Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> On Nov 20, 2007, at 2:19 AM, Patrick wrote:
>> ...
>> It would be much better if the "configure" option would take care of
>> this and perhaps the "help and support" area search results provided
>> specific links to useful Ubuntu specific online information.
>>
>> I am disappointed that my efforts have come to nothing.
>> ...
>
> If Ubuntu-specific help is lacking, you can get involved with the
> Ubuntu Documentation Team in writing it. <http://doc.ubuntu.com/>
>
> If the help is present but is not being found in a search, please
> report that as a bug. <https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/yelp/+bugs>
>
>> I would recommend more useablility studies to determine whether the
>> present set up is actually being found and utilized.
>> ...
>
> That's another way you can help: carry out user testing.
> <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UsabilityTesting>
>
> Cheers


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Matthew Paul Thomas 11-20-2007 01:36 AM

Our best foot forward
 
On Nov 20, 2007, at 1:50 PM, Patrick wrote:

...
We should be putting forth what Ubuntu can do that Windows cannot. It
is the ability to set up so many services and customize so many things
that makes it amazing. Most of this still needs to be done at the
terminal though. People need to be able to use it's rich set of
features without so much suffering.


All of my suggestions seem to be rebuffed and the general feedback I am
getting is that everything is already the way it needs to be.
...


I think the problem is that you're unclear about how you want to
contribute.


You proposed helper terminal scripts for setting up server functions,
and then you said perhaps it wasn't a good idea after all.


You said the post-install scripts should be better, and Onno invited
you to report bugs about specific problems. Have you?


You said the help and support could be better, I invited you to join
the documentation team, and then you said "I don't think it is lacking
in terms of the casual user" and "I am not having trouble searching for
documentation".


You suggested running usability tests, I invited you to do just that,
and then you said it would be difficult to find representative test
subjects. (True, but it's just as difficult for almost anyone else.)


Forgive us if we're running out of ideas for how you can help. :-)
Writing mailing list messages does not, in itself, improve Ubuntu.


Cheers
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http://mpt.net.nz/
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Patrick 11-20-2007 02:47 AM

Our best foot forward
 
indeed I am unsure of how to contribute.

It would seem that I could take the prize for both the longest and most
poorly written emails as the feedback I am receiving is disconnected
from the message I was sending.

To summarize my long winded emails:

Ubuntu is the ultimate OS for the power user, programmer and System
administrator.This is what needs to be promoted.

Something like a helper script is badly needed but a post installation
script is basically the same thing, no need to re-invent the wheel, it's
better to improve whats already there.

Most post installation scripts are turned off by default, they should
not be.

The post installation scripts are not very accessible. The configure
option should also be available under the right click in synaptic.

The post installation scripts should have more of a tutorial element to
them.

The post installation scripts should be divided up between programmers
and tutorial writers.

The tutorial element should be written by users that were recipients of
the first ones, not by long time Linux experts who are disconnected from
the experiences of a new user.

I want to help write these post installation script tutorials.

I apologize for contradicting myself on the documentation issue. The
documentation that is written is already excellent. The only problem
with it is that some users, like me, may get confused as to what is
Ubuntu specific and what is Linux specific, they are not always the same
as my manual compiling experience taught me. A Synaptic like search
repository within the OS that pointed outwards to Ubuntu specific online
documentation would be helpful.

-Patrick


Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> On Nov 20, 2007, at 1:50 PM, Patrick wrote:
>> ...
>> We should be putting forth what Ubuntu can do that Windows cannot. It
>> is the ability to set up so many services and customize so many
>> things that makes it amazing. Most of this still needs to be done at
>> the terminal though. People need to be able to use it's rich set of
>> features without so much suffering.
>>
>> All of my suggestions seem to be rebuffed and the general feedback I am
>> getting is that everything is already the way it needs to be.
>> ...
>
> I think the problem is that you're unclear about how you want to
> contribute.
>
> You proposed helper terminal scripts for setting up server functions,
> and then you said perhaps it wasn't a good idea after all.
>
> You said the post-install scripts should be better, and Onno invited
> you to report bugs about specific problems. Have you?
>
> You said the help and support could be better, I invited you to join
> the documentation team, and then you said "I don't think it is lacking
> in terms of the casual user" and "I am not having trouble searching
> for documentation".
>
> You suggested running usability tests, I invited you to do just that,
> and then you said it would be difficult to find representative test
> subjects. (True, but it's just as difficult for almost anyone else.)
>
> Forgive us if we're running out of ideas for how you can help. :-)
> Writing mailing list messages does not, in itself, improve Ubuntu.
>
> Cheers


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randall 11-20-2007 05:51 AM

Our best foot forward
 
Patrick wrote:
> indeed I am unsure of how to contribute.
>
> It would seem that I could take the prize for both the longest and most
> poorly written emails as the feedback I am receiving is disconnected
> from the message I was sending.
>
> To summarize my long winded emails:
>
> Ubuntu is the ultimate OS for the power user, programmer and System
> administrator.This is what needs to be promoted.
>
> Something like a helper script is badly needed but a post installation
> script is basically the same thing, no need to re-invent the wheel, it's
> better to improve whats already there.
>
> Most post installation scripts are turned off by default, they should
> not be.
>
> The post installation scripts are not very accessible. The configure
> option should also be available under the right click in synaptic.
>
> The post installation scripts should have more of a tutorial element to
> them.
>
> The post installation scripts should be divided up between programmers
> and tutorial writers.
>
> The tutorial element should be written by users that were recipients of
> the first ones, not by long time Linux experts who are disconnected from
> the experiences of a new user.
>
> I want to help write these post installation script tutorials.
>
> I apologize for contradicting myself on the documentation issue. The
> documentation that is written is already excellent. The only problem
> with it is that some users, like me, may get confused as to what is
> Ubuntu specific and what is Linux specific, they are not always the same
> as my manual compiling experience taught me. A Synaptic like search
> repository within the OS that pointed outwards to Ubuntu specific online
> documentation would be helpful.
>
> -Patrick
>
>
> Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
>
>> On Nov 20, 2007, at 1:50 PM, Patrick wrote:
>>
>>> ...
>>> We should be putting forth what Ubuntu can do that Windows cannot. It
>>> is the ability to set up so many services and customize so many
>>> things that makes it amazing. Most of this still needs to be done at
>>> the terminal though. People need to be able to use it's rich set of
>>> features without so much suffering.
>>>
>>> All of my suggestions seem to be rebuffed and the general feedback I am
>>> getting is that everything is already the way it needs to be.
>>> ...
>>>
>> I think the problem is that you're unclear about how you want to
>> contribute.
>>
>> You proposed helper terminal scripts for setting up server functions,
>> and then you said perhaps it wasn't a good idea after all.
>>
>> You said the post-install scripts should be better, and Onno invited
>> you to report bugs about specific problems. Have you?
>>
>> You said the help and support could be better, I invited you to join
>> the documentation team, and then you said "I don't think it is lacking
>> in terms of the casual user" and "I am not having trouble searching
>> for documentation".
>>
>> You suggested running usability tests, I invited you to do just that,
>> and then you said it would be difficult to find representative test
>> subjects. (True, but it's just as difficult for almost anyone else.)
>>
>> Forgive us if we're running out of ideas for how you can help. :-)
>> Writing mailing list messages does not, in itself, improve Ubuntu.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>
>
>
it is true, Linux has everything you need if you don´t mind to edit some
configuration files and spent a day or two to figure out the things you
want to accomplish OR if somebody already made a simple interface for
you to use it or pre-configured it.
Ubuntu is made with the ¨no-brainer klik-klak power-user¨ in mind and i
must say they already came a long way when it comes to the desktop but
it is still lacking in the server department.

if you want to start contributing you will need to find a small personal
itch, something that bothers you and you need to see improved,
you were talking about setting up vsftpd as a first troublesome
experience so that would be a nice start, some script might do it indeed
but maybe it would be good to have a look at ebox for example that is in
development to become a part ubuntu (think they are working for Hardy),
it is something that will strengthen the easy ubuntu experience on the
server side, so you might want to have a look there, is FTP already a
standard option in ebox?



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Sebastian Heinlein 11-20-2007 12:22 PM

Our best foot forward
 
Am Montag, den 19.11.2007, 22:47 -0500 schrieb Patrick:
>
> The post installation scripts should be divided up between
> programmers
> and tutorial writers.

Post-installation scripts should not contain any things that are not
related to installing the package, since they have to robust.

Furthermore the help would be hooked in too late. In most cases you have
read about a piece of software before installing it.

There is the plan to setup a web based package/application repository
that Syntaptic and GnomeAppInstall will link to. The corresponding
package page could also contain links to tutorials or other help
resources. Perhaps this is also an area to contirbute to.
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Patrick 11-20-2007 12:51 PM

Our best foot forward
 
Hi Sebastian

That sounds like a good idea!

I would like to help. Do you have a rough estimate as to when the web
based Synaptic will be ready?

Sebastian Heinlein wrote:
> Am Montag, den 19.11.2007, 22:47 -0500 schrieb Patrick:
>
>> The post installation scripts should be divided up between
>> programmers
>> and tutorial writers.
>>
>
> Post-installation scripts should not contain any things that are not
> related to installing the package, since they have to robust.
>
> Furthermore the help would be hooked in too late. In most cases you have
> read about a piece of software before installing it.
>
> There is the plan to setup a web based package/application repository
> that Syntaptic and GnomeAppInstall will link to. The corresponding
> package page could also contain links to tutorials or other help
> resources. Perhaps this is also an area to contirbute to.
>


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Sebastian Heinlein 11-20-2007 10:45 PM

Our best foot forward
 
Am Dienstag, den 20.11.2007, 08:51 -0500 schrieb Patrick:
> Hi Sebastian
>
> That sounds like a good idea!
>
> I would like to help. Do you have a rough estimate as to when the web
> based Synaptic will be ready?

No, at first it needs some skilled web developers :)
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