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Old 11-01-2009, 11:51 AM
"Michael Bienia"
 
Default Lucid auto-syncing with Debian testing

Hi,

as I just read on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS, lucid is going to
auto-sync with Debian testing instead of Debian unstable.

As I consider this an important change compared to current processes, I
was wondering if this will be announced on u-d-a or has every developer
to find it out by himself? Did I miss any other important changes I
might need to know as a developer?

How will this affect development?
- Is it still possible to sync with Debian unstable if needed? Or only
with Debian testing?
- Do we need to update our tools?
- Will MoM (merges.ubuntu.com) list pending merges against testing or
still against unstable?
- Should we change requestsync to file sync requests from testing
instead of unstable? Or will they all get synced from testing even
if the title mentions unstable?

Michael

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Old 11-01-2009, 08:10 PM
Robbie Williamson
 
Default Lucid auto-syncing with Debian testing

Please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS.

Note that our synching from testing is *only* for the LTS release.

-Robbie

On Sun, 2009-11-01 at 13:51 +0100, Michael Bienia wrote:
> Hi,
>
> as I just read on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS, lucid is going to
> auto-sync with Debian testing instead of Debian unstable.
>
> As I consider this an important change compared to current processes, I
> was wondering if this will be announced on u-d-a or has every developer
> to find it out by himself? Did I miss any other important changes I
> might need to know as a developer?
>
> How will this affect development?
> - Is it still possible to sync with Debian unstable if needed? Or only
> with Debian testing?
> - Do we need to update our tools?
> - Will MoM (merges.ubuntu.com) list pending merges against testing or
> still against unstable?
> - Should we change requestsync to file sync requests from testing
> instead of unstable? Or will they all get synced from testing even
> if the title mentions unstable?
>
> Michael
>



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Old 11-01-2009, 08:32 PM
Matthias Klose
 
Default Lucid auto-syncing with Debian testing

On 01.11.2009 22:10, Robbie Williamson wrote:
> Please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS.
>
> Note that our synching from testing is *only* for the LTS release.

IMO that's a bad idea which doesn't help starting lucid at all.

- you rely on unstable -> testing transitions which currently
are blocked by eglibc/xulrunner/sqlite. waiting for every
such transition hinders lucid, it doesn't help it. The
merge/sync window is short enough this cycle, please don't
delay it further.

- For an LTS we are going to try reducing the number of
versions for a software; consolidating on the versions
that Debian currently switches to reduces the amount of
resources spent on these tasks.

To get advantages, we should start syncing from unstable, and later
switch to syncing from testing.

Matthias

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Old 11-01-2009, 09:15 PM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default Lucid auto-syncing with Debian testing

On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 22:32:28 +0100 Matthias Klose <doko@ubuntu.com> wrote:
>On 01.11.2009 22:10, Robbie Williamson wrote:
>> Please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS.
>>
>> Note that our synching from testing is *only* for the LTS release.
>
>IMO that's a bad idea which doesn't help starting lucid at all.
>
> - you rely on unstable -> testing transitions which currently
> are blocked by eglibc/xulrunner/sqlite. waiting for every
> such transition hinders lucid, it doesn't help it. The
> merge/sync window is short enough this cycle, please don't
> delay it further.
>
> - For an LTS we are going to try reducing the number of
> versions for a software; consolidating on the versions
> that Debian currently switches to reduces the amount of
> resources spent on these tasks.
>
>To get advantages, we should start syncing from unstable, and later
>switch to syncing from testing.

+1

Once Debian freezez we should sync from Testing up until at least Beta Freeze (and for Universe
all the way to Final Freeze).

Scott K

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Old 11-01-2009, 09:36 PM
"Michael Bienia"
 
Default Lucid auto-syncing with Debian testing

On 2009-11-01 13:10:11 -0800, Robbie Williamson wrote:
> Note that our synching from testing is *only* for the LTS release.

That I've understood, but this still leaves the question about our
development tools, like MoM or requestsync. Should they be modified (or
has it perhaps already happend?) to work against Debian testing for lucid
(and changed back to unstable for lucid+1)?
MoM will be pretty useless during lucid development if it still
continues to prepare merges against unstable. And requestsync needs to
be told to request a sync from testing instead of it's default of
unstable.

And how should the sponsoring teams process with sync request from
unstable? Reject them if no rationale to sync from unstable is given?
Modify them to sync from testing instead?

Those are questions this page doesn't answer (if I haven't overlooked
something). And I guess there are some more of our processes affected by
this change.

And what about a proper announcement of this? I don't know if all
developers know already about it and what implications it has on current
processes. This should be announced properly on u-d-a (that's the
channel I expect to see such announcements) as it's a pretty important
change compared to all past development cycles. And this should be done
before lucid opens and people start uploading merges against unstable
like they done till now when the archive opens for the new release.

Michael

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Old 11-01-2009, 10:18 PM
Bryce Harrington
 
Default Lucid auto-syncing with Debian testing

On Sun, Nov 01, 2009 at 11:36:44PM +0100, Michael Bienia wrote:
> On 2009-11-01 13:10:11 -0800, Robbie Williamson wrote:
> > Note that our synching from testing is *only* for the LTS release.
>
> That I've understood, but this still leaves the question about our
> development tools, like MoM or requestsync. Should they be modified (or
> has it perhaps already happend?) to work against Debian testing for lucid
> (and changed back to unstable for lucid+1)?

Seems pretty certain they should be modified, just a question of if that
work's been done.

> And how should the sponsoring teams process with sync request from
> unstable? Reject them if no rationale to sync from unstable is given?
> Modify them to sync from testing instead?

Assuming requestsync is updated to by default request syncs against
testing, I wouldn't imagine this to be happening by accident very
frequently, and given that it wouldn't seem to add value to add
additional bureaucracy to the process.

> And what about a proper announcement of this? I don't know if all
> developers know already about it and what implications it has on current
> processes.

Fwiw, this thread was the first I'd heard about this. (At least, that I
can recall... maybe it was mentioned at one of the conferences but I
don't remember.)

> This should be announced properly on u-d-a.

Agreed.

Bryce

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Old 11-01-2009, 10:18 PM
Mackenzie Morgan
 
Default Lucid auto-syncing with Debian testing

On Sunday 01 November 2009 6:18:09 pm Bryce Harrington wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 01, 2009 at 11:36:44PM +0100, Michael Bienia wrote:
> > And what about a proper announcement of this? I don't know if all
> > developers know already about it and what implications it has on current
> > processes.
>
> Fwiw, this thread was the first I'd heard about this. (At least, that I
> can recall... maybe it was mentioned at one of the conferences but I
> don't remember.)

Same...

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apt-get moo

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Old 11-01-2009, 10:32 PM
Robert Collins
 
Default Lucid auto-syncing with Debian testing

On Sun, 2009-11-01 at 22:32 +0100, Matthias Klose wrote:
> On 01.11.2009 22:10, Robbie Williamson wrote:
> > Please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS.
> >
> > Note that our synching from testing is *only* for the LTS release.
>
> IMO that's a bad idea which doesn't help starting lucid at all.

I agree.

> - you rely on unstable -> testing transitions which currently
> are blocked by eglibc/xulrunner/sqlite. waiting for every
> such transition hinders lucid, it doesn't help it. The
> merge/sync window is short enough this cycle, please don't
> delay it further.

Also we'll be waiting 10 days even for normal changes unless we fiddle
the urgency field in Debian - that sort of latency would make it pretty
hard to fix any bug by doing an upload to Debian *even for packages we
maintain there*. Thats bad, because it mwans we'll have more merges in
Lucid+1 (or even in Lucid) rather than simple syncs - increasing the
cost of maintainance.

-Rob
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Old 11-01-2009, 10:44 PM
Daniel Chen
 
Default Lucid auto-syncing with Debian testing

On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Robbie Williamson <robbie@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> Note that our synching from testing is *only* for the LTS release.

I agree with others concerned with syncing from testing immediately.

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Old 11-01-2009, 10:52 PM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default Lucid auto-syncing with Debian testing

On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 15:18:09 -0800 Bryce Harrington <bryce@canonical.com>
wrote:
>Fwiw, this thread was the first I'd heard about this. (At least, that I
>can recall... maybe it was mentioned at one of the conferences but I
>don't remember.)
>
>> This should be announced properly on u-d-a.
>
>Agreed.
>

IIRC, this was a topic of discussion at the last UDS in the coordination
with Debian discussion. It was discussed in context of continuing to sync
from testing after DIF and after Debian was frozen, not in general.

Scott K

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