FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Ubuntu > Ubuntu Development

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 03-03-2009, 11:23 AM
Nerijus
 
Default Notifications: uselessness of

Those, who do not install OSes themselves usually do not update anything,
unless they are told that it is OK and taught HOW to do it.

Option to install updates automatically would be better then, because in my

experience such users just close windows they don't understand. Every time.
Then complain how annoying it is.

Nerijus Arlauskas

2009/3/2 Max Bowsher <maxb@f2s.com>

Marius Gedminas wrote:

> On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 07:01:22PM +1100, Robert Collins wrote:

>> On Thu, 2009-02-26 at 21:50 +0000, Bruce Cowan wrote:

>>> Replacing a "distracting ... bubble that floats on top of your work"

>>> with a distracting window that appears behind your work doesn't seem to

>>> be much of an improvement. Also, why is the window list considered a

>>> second notification area now?

>> I'll be interested to see the one that appears behind things... I see my

>> desktop about once a week, when logging in. Then after that its a full

>> screen terminal, which I never minimise.

>>

>> I know plenty of other folk that work in similar ways (many of them use

>> terminator and are sysadmins|programmers) .

>

> The flashing button in the window list tends to attract attention.



A flashing button in the window list says "deal with me NOW NOW NOW!".



The previous update-notifier orange rosette / red arrow was is easily

noticeable, but not intrusive. A *much* better UI for this kind of

notification.




--

ubuntu-devel mailing list

ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com

Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel



--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
 
Old 03-03-2009, 01:47 PM
Laurent
 
Default Notifications: uselessness of

Nerijus ha scritto:
> Those, who do not install OSes themselves usually do not update anything,
> unless they are told that it is OK and taught HOW to do it.
>
I my personal experience (which is limited to have installed 5 Ubuntu's
on non-expert friend's computers), I have the same impression. The users
divide in two categories

1. the ones who say "updates ? I don"t care; even security holes : there
are no viruses on Linux and even with viruses, I don't care : I have
nothing to hide on my computer, no personal data, no agenda, nothing"

2. the ones who care.

We all agree here that the reasons invoked by the first group are
terribly wrong, and are the result of deep misunderstanding of many
points in general informatics... however...

The first group will NEVER make the updates, a part with an automatic
system which don't even notify. What we need to do for them is
*education*[1]; there are no real technical way to make them aware of
the updates.

For the second group, the small old icon which appears is sufficient.

I personally don't know people in an intermediate state between these
two categories. I suppose there exists some ... but I fear that they are
very few.

My two cents
have a good afternoon
Laurent


[1] btw, if someone knows a text that can explain me how to be
persuasive in explaining that security updates are needed for everybody,
I'm interested. Although I try very hard, I never succeeded to make that
point clear in the head of non-expert users.


--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
 
Old 03-03-2009, 07:42 PM
Marius Gedminas
 
Default Notifications: uselessness of

On Tue, Mar 03, 2009 at 03:47:17PM +0100, Laurent wrote:
> I my personal experience (which is limited to have installed 5 Ubuntu's
> on non-expert friend's computers), I have the same impression. The users
> divide in two categories
>
> 1. the ones who say "updates ? I don"t care; even security holes : there
> are no viruses on Linux and even with viruses, I don't care : I have
> nothing to hide on my computer, no personal data, no agenda, nothing"
>
> 2. the ones who care.
>
> We all agree here that the reasons invoked by the first group are
> terribly wrong, and are the result of deep misunderstanding of many
> points in general informatics... however...

And then there are ones who don't understand and are scared by every
unfamiliar window and just click on 'Cancel' by default, thinking it's
the safer choice. You could consider them to be part of group (1).

> The first group will NEVER make the updates, a part with an automatic
> system which don't even notify. What we need to do for them is
> *education*[1]; there are no real technical way to make them aware of
> the updates.
>
> For the second group, the small old icon which appears is sufficient.
>
> I personally don't know people in an intermediate state between these
> two categories. I suppose there exists some ... but I fear that they are
> very few.
>
> My two cents
> have a good afternoon
> Laurent
>
>
> [1] btw, if someone knows a text that can explain me how to be
> persuasive in explaining that security updates are needed for everybody,
> I'm interested. Although I try very hard, I never succeeded to make that
> point clear in the head of non-expert users.

Have you tried appealing to their sense of civic responsibility? If
somebody takes over their machine, they could use it to attack other
people on the Internet/send spam/etc.

Marius Gedminas
--
Shift happens.
-- Doppler
--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
 
Old 03-03-2009, 09:27 PM
Laurent
 
Default Notifications: uselessness of

Marius Gedminas ha scritto:
>> 1. the ones who say "updates ? I don"t care; even security holes : there
>> are no viruses on Linux and even with viruses, I don't care : I have
>> nothing to hide on my computer, no personal data, no agenda, nothing"
>>
> And then there are ones who don't understand and are scared by every
> unfamiliar window and just click on 'Cancel' by default, thinking it's
> the safer choice. You could consider them to be part of group (1).
>

Yes, I do, of course
> [1] btw, if someone knows a text that can explain me how to be
> persuasive in explaining that security updates are needed for everybody,
> I'm interested. Although I try very hard, I never succeeded to make that
> point clear in the head of non-expert users.
>
>
> Have you tried appealing to their sense of civic responsibility? If
> somebody takes over their machine, they could use it to attack other
> people on the Internet/send spam/etc.
>

Yes. The simplest case being : if *you* have a virus that steal *my*
email address on your computer, *I* get spamed, so *your* security is
*my* problem. No real results...
Maybe I'm not a good advocate, or I present badly my ideas
The only way, in my experience, which works more or less is : why is
Linux more secure than Windows ? Because Linuxians install the updates.
I'm only 50% convicted of the honesty if that claim, but it works sometimes.

Anyway, I'm quite convicted that the update issue is more an education
issue than a interface/notification issue. As such, Ubuntu should take
care : one of the main consequences of Bug Number 1 is that 98% of
people believe that it is possible to use a computer without any
education : everything has to come out of the box and user has no
administration to do. Ubuntu being one of the top-popular Linux
distribution in the non-expert world, we have some responsibilities in
avoiding Ubuntu users to reproduce that bad behaviour.
So, when I install an Ubuntu for a friend, I try very hard to convince
him to install the updates, and I'm quite afraid to see that it don't
works ... ok ... I'm now out of the subject

have a good night
Laurent

--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
 
Old 03-04-2009, 02:06 AM
Raymond Lillard
 
Default Notifications: uselessness of

Scott Kitterman wrote:
> In short, I think this changes solves no actual significant problem yet
> intoduces many. I've seen many specific complaints from quite a number of
> users of the development release and I don't see anything other than
> armwaving and "trust us, we're U/I experts" in response.
>
> I know that sounds harsh, but that's how I see it.

I'm not a Linux developer, but I've used Linux as my
primary desktop for more than a decade, having started
playing with it somewhere around 1995. For those who
have no Linux experience from that time, recompiling
kernels was a requirement to get anything like full
functionality of one's h/w.

I have resisted commenting on this topic, even tried
ignoring it for nearly a week, but I've been pushed
over the edge, so here is my viewpoint.

I agree with Scott, leave the notifier alone. The
little star-burst and arrow thingys are just fine.

A system-modal pop-up will really piss me off.

An automatic update, whether rammed down my throat
or done surreptitiously when I wasn't looking,
would be for me, grounds to move on.

I'd really like to see all the energy wasted on this
notifier business put into fixing Gnome bug #187540.

Now you guys go and do whatever you decide to do and
I will make a decisions too. There are other distros
and I can use any of them. For now, Ubuntu provides
me the best working environment with the least effort
on my part. As long as that continues, I will use
Ubuntu, when not, I will move on.

If the project wants to focus on users with a different
perspective than mine, go for it. I'm sure Ubuntu will
survive w/o my using it and I am fully aware that it is
s/w provided for free for which I am suitably grateful.

Regards all,
Ray


--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
 
Old 03-04-2009, 09:18 AM
Odysseus Flappington
 
Default Notifications: uselessness of

2009/3/3 Marius Gedminas <marius@pov.lt>:
> On Tue, Mar 03, 2009 at 03:47:17PM +0100, Laurent wrote:
>> I my personal experience (which is limited to have installed 5 Ubuntu's
>> on non-expert friend's computers), I have the same impression. The users
>> divide in two categories
>>
>> 1. the ones who say "updates ? I don"t care; even security holes : there
>> are no viruses on Linux and even with viruses, I don't care : I have
>> nothing to hide on my computer, no personal data, no agenda, nothing"
>>
>> 2. the ones who care.
>>
>> We all agree here that the reasons invoked by the first group are
>> terribly wrong, and are the result of deep misunderstanding of many
>> points in general informatics... however...
>
> And then there are ones who don't understand and are scared by every
> unfamiliar window and just click on 'Cancel' by default, thinking it's
> the safer choice. *You could consider them to be part of group (1).
>
>> The first group will NEVER make the updates, a part with an automatic
>> system which don't even notify. What we need to do for them is
>> *education*[1]; there are no real technical way to make them aware of
>> the updates.
>>
>> For the second group, the small old icon which appears is sufficient.
>>
>> I personally don't know people in an intermediate state between these
>> two categories. I suppose there exists some ... but I fear that they are
>> very few.
>>
>> My two cents
>> have a good afternoon
>> Laurent
>>
>>
>> [1] btw, if someone knows a text that can explain me how to be
>> persuasive in explaining that security updates are needed for everybody,
>> I'm interested. Although I try very hard, I never succeeded to make that
>> point clear in the head of non-expert users.
>
> Have you tried appealing to their sense of civic responsibility? *If
> somebody takes over their machine, they could use it to attack other
> people on the Internet/send spam/etc.
>

I'm sorry, I cannot in good conscience advise any non-technical person
to install updates on their own. If I were to do this, and something
broke, I would have to go out and fix it right there and then, and
considering how little time I have, this is not an option.

When it comes to installing updates for people I provide support to, I
will only ever do it myself, and when I am prepared to spend the time
to fix anything that may break.

First thing I do once I have a fresh install ready and working on a
non-techie's computer, is disable the Update Notifier.

--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
 
Old 03-05-2009, 12:21 PM
John Vivirito
 
Default Notifications: uselessness of

On 03/03/2009 04:02 AM, Marius Gedminas wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 02, 2009 at 07:17:35PM +0000, Max Bowsher wrote:
>> Marius Gedminas wrote:
>>> The flashing button in the window list tends to attract attention.
>> A flashing button in the window list says "deal with me NOW NOW NOW!".
>
> Well, no. A system-modal popup dialog says "NOW NOW NOW". A flashing
> button says "please deal with me in a couple of minutes, ok? how about
> now? how about now? please? c'mon, do it!"
>
>> The previous update-notifier orange rosette / red arrow was is easily
>> noticeable, but not intrusive.

Lack of intrusiveness is good for "everyone" Well at least those of us
that use Ubuntu as our work station. During working hours i don't need a
big thing popping up in my face to do updates or what not.

> I gather that was the problem: lack of intrusiveness. Non-advanced
> users did not notice it and did not install important security updates.
>
This is not really a great way to think of it IMHO.
I know you didn't mean it this way or at least didn't intend to mean it
this way but i didn't see a problem with using cron to check for updates
and showing the icon in panel.
We are unable to please everyone and i realize that some people didn't
see it or didn't know what it meant.

By no means does that imply we should have update-manager open up i big
window whether it takes focus or not. maybe make it a smaller window.
It should also not open if you are already running updates in terminal.
My reasoning behind this is that in the past apt was only able to run
one instance at a time and i am assuming update-manager still uses apt
to update the list, we are still only able to run one instance of
apt/dpkg at a time outside of U-M.

--
Sincerely Yours,
John Vivirito

https://launchpad.net/~gnomefreak
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JohnVivirito
Linux User# 414246

"How can i get lost, if i have no where to go"
-- Metallica from Unforgiven III

--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 05:14 PM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org