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Old 02-28-2009, 02:03 PM
James Westby
 
Default Notifications: uselessness of

On Fri, 2009-02-27 at 21:06 +0000, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> Jordan Mantha wrote on 27/02/09 17:23:
> > I've not heard
> > of anybody complaining about not being able to find the updates, quite
> > the contrary.
>
> Here's a fun example of someone not being able to find the updates.
> <http://launchpad.net/bugs/175166>

One of the very first things I did after installing Ubuntu:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/84691


Unfortunately, I didn't really know how to get the change included at
that point, but it shows at least that particular niggle can be fixed.

Thanks,

James


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Old 03-02-2009, 08:45 AM
Mat Tomaszewski
 
Default Notifications: uselessness of

Scott Kitterman wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:06:30 +0000 Matthew Paul Thomas <mpt@canonical.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Please do not blame the Desktop Experience team for everything -- they
>> are just implementing what the Design team asks them to. :-)
>>
>>
> Please don't just pass the buck. These details of Canonical's internal
> organization are opaque to the community and really irrelevant.
>
> If you don't have the authority to address usability regressions, then
> please let the community know who does and ask them to join this discussion.
>
Just to clarify - both Matthew and myself *are* members of the Design
team, not the DX team. Therefore we are amongst those directly
responsible for some decisions that have been taken regarding the U-M
and are not passing any bucks - actually exact opposite

Regards,
Mat

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Old 03-02-2009, 09:00 AM
Mat Tomaszewski
 
Default Notifications: uselessness of

Scott Kitterman wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 09:52:01 +0000 Mat Tomaszewski
> <mat.tomaszewski@canonical.com> wrote:
>
>> I'd like to reiterate the main point: we have a good reason to
>> believe that persistent indicators only work for some very specific
>> cases (examples being network connection, volume, etc).
>>
>
> References please ....
>
>
There's a strong tendency in some discussions to call upon "hard
proofs", whenever convenient. I could do exactly the same thing and ask
you to point me to the research that shows the effectiveness of the
update-notifier icon.

As Matthew mentioned earlier, some areas are difficult to apply direct,
"hard" tests to. Not to mention time and cost. However, there is a vast
array of examples which show that whenever the important decision needs
to be made it is better to present it to the user directly. It is
crucial that people do update their system regularly and we really want
to make sure they do. I agree it may not be the most elegant and classy
way of doing it, and as soon as we find a better way, we'll implement
it. Any suggestions are most welcome. For now though we are determined
to see whether and how the new solution works out for Ubuntu users.

Thanks again for your feedback.

Regards,
Mat



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Old 03-02-2009, 09:19 AM
Matthew Paul Thomas
 
Default Notifications: uselessness of

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Mackenzie Morgan wrote on 28/02/09 09:20:
>...
> Agreed. I like the look of the new notifications, don't get me wrong,
> but...this no-actions thing is really annoying. Pidgin-libnotify had
> a show button so I could automatically open a chat window for whomever
> had just signed on, or view the chat window upon receiving a message.
> I can't do this anymore thanks to Notify-OSD.
>...

This will be handled by the new messaging menu.

Cheers
- --
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/
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Old 03-02-2009, 10:19 AM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default Notifications: uselessness of

On Mon, 02 Mar 2009 09:45:08 +0000 Mat Tomaszewski
<mat.tomaszewski@canonical.com> wrote:
>Scott Kitterman wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:06:30 +0000 Matthew Paul Thomas
<mpt@canonical.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Please do not blame the Desktop Experience team for everything -- they
>>> are just implementing what the Design team asks them to. :-)
>>>
>>>
>> Please don't just pass the buck. These details of Canonical's internal
>> organization are opaque to the community and really irrelevant.
>>
>> If you don't have the authority to address usability regressions, then
>> please let the community know who does and ask them to join this
discussion.
>>
>Just to clarify - both Matthew and myself *are* members of the Design
>team, not the DX team. Therefore we are amongst those directly
>responsible for some decisions that have been taken regarding the U-M
>and are not passing any bucks - actually exact opposite
>
OK. Thanks for clearing that aspect of it up.

The distinctions between various bits of Canonical's internal org chart
really are quite a subtle point to expect outsiders to understand or
remember.

Scott K

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Old 03-02-2009, 10:29 AM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default Notifications: uselessness of

On Mon, 02 Mar 2009 10:00:28 +0000 Mat Tomaszewski
<mat.tomaszewski@canonical.com> wrote:
>Scott Kitterman wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 09:52:01 +0000 Mat Tomaszewski
>> <mat.tomaszewski@canonical.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'd like to reiterate the main point: we have a good reason to
>>> believe that persistent indicators only work for some very specific
>>> cases (examples being network connection, volume, etc).
>>>
>>
>> References please ....
>>
>>
>There's a strong tendency in some discussions to call upon "hard
>proofs", whenever convenient. I could do exactly the same thing and ask
>you to point me to the research that shows the effectiveness of the
>update-notifier icon.
>
>As Matthew mentioned earlier, some areas are difficult to apply direct,
>"hard" tests to. Not to mention time and cost. However, there is a vast
>array of examples which show that whenever the important decision needs
>to be made it is better to present it to the user directly. It is
>crucial that people do update their system regularly and we really want
>to make sure they do. I agree it may not be the most elegant and classy
>way of doing it, and as soon as we find a better way, we'll implement
>it. Any suggestions are most welcome. For now though we are determined
>to see whether and how the new solution works out for Ubuntu users.
>
You are the one that said "we have a good reason to believe that ...".
Fine. What's the basis for this? If you want to make assertions from
authority, be prepared to back them up.

Your assertions run completely counter to my experiences, so I think it's
quite reasonable for me to want something more than "because you say so".

In a related note, I was chatting with a Xubuntu dev who does not follow
this list closely last night and this topic come up. He was completely
boggled that the icon had been removed on purpose. He had been trying to
figure out how they had broken it so it didn't show up anymore.

Scott K

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Old 03-02-2009, 12:45 PM
Marius Gedminas
 
Default Notifications: uselessness of

On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 07:01:22PM +1100, Robert Collins wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-02-26 at 21:50 +0000, Bruce Cowan wrote:
> > Replacing a "distracting ... bubble that floats on top of your work"
> > with a distracting window that appears behind your work doesn't seem to
> > be much of an improvement. Also, why is the window list considered a
> > second notification area now?
>
> I'll be interested to see the one that appears behind things... I see my
> desktop about once a week, when logging in. Then after that its a full
> screen terminal, which I never minimise.
>
> I know plenty of other folk that work in similar ways (many of them use
> terminator and are sysadmins|programmers) .

The flashing button in the window list tends to attract attention.

Disclaimer: I'm not running Jaunty, so I haven't seen what happens
myself.

Marius Gedminas
--
The rest of the world will have to be educated by Microsoft's paperclip
or the DancingGnu (a still to be written Emacs AI tutor for beginning
users), I'm afraid.
-- Markus Kuhn suggests an Emacs alternative to Vigor and Clippy
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Old 03-02-2009, 06:17 PM
Max Bowsher
 
Default Notifications: uselessness of

Marius Gedminas wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 07:01:22PM +1100, Robert Collins wrote:
>> On Thu, 2009-02-26 at 21:50 +0000, Bruce Cowan wrote:
>>> Replacing a "distracting ... bubble that floats on top of your work"
>>> with a distracting window that appears behind your work doesn't seem to
>>> be much of an improvement. Also, why is the window list considered a
>>> second notification area now?
>> I'll be interested to see the one that appears behind things... I see my
>> desktop about once a week, when logging in. Then after that its a full
>> screen terminal, which I never minimise.
>>
>> I know plenty of other folk that work in similar ways (many of them use
>> terminator and are sysadmins|programmers) .
>
> The flashing button in the window list tends to attract attention.

A flashing button in the window list says "deal with me NOW NOW NOW!".

The previous update-notifier orange rosette / red arrow was is easily
noticeable, but not intrusive. A *much* better UI for this kind of
notification.

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Old 03-03-2009, 08:02 AM
Marius Gedminas
 
Default Notifications: uselessness of

On Mon, Mar 02, 2009 at 07:17:35PM +0000, Max Bowsher wrote:
> Marius Gedminas wrote:
> > The flashing button in the window list tends to attract attention.
>
> A flashing button in the window list says "deal with me NOW NOW NOW!".

Well, no. A system-modal popup dialog says "NOW NOW NOW". A flashing
button says "please deal with me in a couple of minutes, ok? how about
now? how about now? please? c'mon, do it!"

> The previous update-notifier orange rosette / red arrow was is easily
> noticeable, but not intrusive.

I gather that was the problem: lack of intrusiveness. Non-advanced
users did not notice it and did not install important security updates.

Marius Gedminas
--
Redundancy is bad because it causes errors, and wastes resources. (Ed: Also I
think there's a commandment against it in the Bible. Or there was until they
refactored them).
-- http://www.oblomovka.com/entries/2004/07/29#1091150520
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Old 03-03-2009, 10:19 AM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default Notifications: uselessness of

On Tue, 3 Mar 2009 11:02:54 +0200 Marius Gedminas <marius@pov.lt> wrote:
>On Mon, Mar 02, 2009 at 07:17:35PM +0000, Max Bowsher wrote:
>> Marius Gedminas wrote:
>> > The flashing button in the window list tends to attract attention.
>>
>> A flashing button in the window list says "deal with me NOW NOW NOW!".
>
>Well, no. A system-modal popup dialog says "NOW NOW NOW". A flashing
>button says "please deal with me in a couple of minutes, ok? how about
>now? how about now? please? c'mon, do it!"
>
>> The previous update-notifier orange rosette / red arrow was is easily
>> noticeable, but not intrusive.
>
>I gather that was the problem: lack of intrusiveness. Non-advanced
>users did not notice it and did not install important security updates.

IIRC it has been claimed that this is a problem, but I don't recall any
evidence being presented for it nor any evidence that this new system will
cause more updates to be installed. Personally, I think that generally
users that care about updates know about them and install them already and
ones that don't care still won't install them.

I was involved in a long IRC discussion yesterday with some of the
designers of this change (on #dx) and my understanding of this discussion
is that it is a "feature" of this change that non-security updates are
hidden from the user for up to a week because users think there are too
many updates. If this is the case, and I personally doubt it as I
routinely field complaints about stuff not being fixed and have yet to get
one about an update, I think it should be solved through SRU policy changes
and not by hiding available updates from the user.

In short, I think this changes solves no actual significant problem yet
intoduces many. I've seen many specific complaints from quite a number of
users of the development release and I don't see anything other than
armwaving and "trust us, we're U/I experts" in response.

I know that sounds harsh, but that's how I see it.

Scott K

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