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Old 02-20-2009, 11:21 AM
Martin Pitt
 
Default update-manager behaviour

Bruce Cowan [2009-02-18 19:03 +0000]:
> update-manager is now set to auto-launch every 2 days. Even though I
> have disabled this, I think it is not the right thing to do.

That's in fact what I'm afraid of. An attempt to increase the
visibility of updates will have the very opposite effect and make
people disable it altogether, which is much worse!

I see a rationale for immediately opening it if security updates are
available, especially since there is an option for installing those by
default.

But there is no urgency at all in installing bug fixes (*-updates).
The problem is that the window usually appears some minutes after
starting your computer and logging in, i. e. it's almost certain that
you started your day and have actual work to do. I never apply updates
at that time, since it is disruptive and also makes my computer slow,
and they also often require a session restart.

We should be *very* hesitant about auto-opening applications without
an user-triggered event (such as plugging in an USB device and
bringing up camera dialog or 3G connection setup), since they are IMHO
one of the most annoying things ever. Personally I don't consider the
availability of non-security package updates an urgent thing which
warrants interrupting the user's work.

Proposal:

* Pop up update-manager automatically for security updates, and make
it more obvious how to install them automatically.

* Do not pop up u-m for non-security updates, and if possible, do not
even show an indicator for it (a notification bubble would make me
happy, though). Showing an indicator or not is certainly fodder for
a long subjective bikeshedding discussion, I figure. :-)

If I want to install bug fix updates, I can easily go to System ->
Admin -> Update Manager at a time which is convenient to me.

I'd appreciate thoughts from our UI design experts on this. If I'm
just stubbornly used to old behaviour, and the new behaviour makes
sense in any objective way, I'm happy to be told so, but I'd like an
objective answer to above concerns.

Thanks a lot in advance!

Martin
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Old 02-20-2009, 11:42 AM
Sam Tygier
 
Default update-manager behaviour

----- Original Message ----
From: Martin Pitt <martin.pitt@ubuntu.com>
>That's in fact what I'm afraid of. An attempt to increase the
>visibility of updates will have the very opposite effect and make
>people disable it altogether, which is much worse!
<snip>
>i. e. it's almost certain that
>you started your day and have actual work to do. I never apply updates
>at that time, since it is disruptive and also makes my computer slow,
>and they also often require a session restart.

Maybe it could be made less annoying.

using nice and ionice maybe it is possible for the updates to have no
noticeable impact on other tasks. as a benchmark it would be nice for
it not to interfere with playing an online video on a low spec machine.

programs like BOINC have a run when computer is idle mode, ie when the
computer has been idle for n seconds start running, when i start typing
again pause it..

or how about a do these updates when i shut down the computer button.
(with a safety check so that it does not happen if a low battery
triggers a shutdown on a laptop).

sam tygier




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Old 02-20-2009, 04:04 PM
Martin Pitt
 
Default update-manager behaviour

Sam Tygier [2009-02-20 12:42 +0000]:
> using nice and ionice maybe it is possible for the updates to have no
> noticeable impact on other tasks.

That's a good part of the problem, but not sufficient. On system
updates, libraries get changed to new versions, desktop packages
change, packages become temporarily unusable (because they get
unconfigured/configured), daemons restart, etc.

I don't want my computer to dictate me if/when it wants to get updates
applied. Even if tries to hide the update process (which would make
the upgrade breakage even more unexpected).

Martin

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Old 02-20-2009, 04:09 PM
Mario Limonciello
 
Default update-manager behaviour

I can think of cases when this behavior can be really disruptive too.

Think about how annoying it would be if update manager was launching while:
Watching a moviePlaying a full screen game
Any time spent in MythTV or boxee
Ubuntu is very popular for people creating homemade multimedia appliances, and I can see this behavior being a major complaint.

2009/2/20 Martin Pitt <martin.pitt@ubuntu.com>

Sam Tygier [2009-02-20 12:42 +0000]:

> using nice and ionice maybe it is possible for the updates to have no

> noticeable impact on other tasks.



That's a good part of the problem, but not sufficient. On system

updates, libraries get changed to new versions, desktop packages

change, packages become temporarily unusable (because they get

unconfigured/configured), daemons restart, etc.



I don't want my computer to dictate me if/when it wants to get updates

applied. Even if tries to hide the update process (which would make

the upgrade breakage even more unexpected).



Martin



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Old 02-20-2009, 04:54 PM
Matthew Paul Thomas
 
Default update-manager behaviour

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Martin Pitt wrote on 20/02/09 12:21:
>
> Bruce Cowan [2009-02-18 19:03 +0000]:
>>
>> update-manager is now set to auto-launch every 2 days. Even though I
>> have disabled this, I think it is not the right thing to do.
>
> That's in fact what I'm afraid of. An attempt to increase the
> visibility of updates will have the very opposite effect and make
> people disable it altogether, which is much worse!
>
> I see a rationale for immediately opening it if security updates are
> available, especially since there is an option for installing those by
> default.
>
> But there is no urgency at all in installing bug fixes (*-updates).
>...

To reiterate, the intended default behavior for Ubuntu 9.04 is:

* When there are security updates, Update Manager will open and show
them (plus any other available updates) within a day.

* When there are non-security updates, Update Manager will open and
show them *one week* after it was last opened (whether it was last
opened manually or automatically, and regardless of whether updates
were actually installed then).

* When there are no available updates, Update Manager will not open
automatically at all.

The non-security interval is currently set to two days -- rather than
one week -- partly to test that the interval code works as it should,
and partly so that people testing Jaunty pre-release are keeping up to
date instead of lagging up to a week behind.

But if enough of the people who test Ubuntu alphas can be relied on to
keep up to date manually, or if lagging up to a week doesn't actually
matter in the grand scheme of Ubuntu testing, I'd be perfectly happy for
Update Manager to switch to the weekly interval right now.

Cheers
- --
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/
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Old 02-20-2009, 04:57 PM
Matthew Paul Thomas
 
Default update-manager behaviour

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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Mario Limonciello wrote on 20/02/09 17:09:
>
> I can think of cases when this behavior can be really disruptive too.
>
> Think about how annoying it would be if update manager was launching
> while:
>
> * Watching a movie
> * Playing a full screen game
> * Any time spent in MythTV or boxee
>...

Whenever Update Manager opens automatically, it should open in the
background. Please report bugs about specific cases where this doesn't
happen, including what window manager you're using.

Thanks
- --
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/
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Old 02-20-2009, 05:01 PM
Mario Limonciello
 
Default update-manager behaviour

Ah this I didn't realize.* I'll make sure that we put a call for testing at the next mythbuntu alpha due to the changed behavior.

Thanks!

2009/2/20 Matthew Paul Thomas <mpt@canonical.com>

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Hash: SHA1



Mario Limonciello wrote on 20/02/09 17:09:

>

> I can think of cases when this behavior can be really disruptive too.

>

> Think about how annoying it would be if update manager was launching

> while:

>

> * * * Watching a movie

> * * * Playing a full screen game

> * * * Any time spent in MythTV or boxee

>...



Whenever Update Manager opens automatically, it should open in the

background. Please report bugs about specific cases where this doesn't

happen, including what window manager you're using.



Thanks

- --

Matthew Paul Thomas

http://mpt.net.nz/

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=W7r3

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Mario Limonciello
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Sent from: Minneapolis Minnesota United States.
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Old 02-20-2009, 05:16 PM
Martin Pitt
 
Default update-manager behaviour

Matthew Paul Thomas [2009-02-20 17:54 +0000]:
> * When there are non-security updates, Update Manager will open and
> show them *one week* after it was last opened (whether it was last
> opened manually or automatically, and regardless of whether updates
> were actually installed then).

Ah, that's good. I wasn't aware that opening u-m manually resets the
counter. I can certainly live with that.

> The non-security interval is currently set to two days -- rather than
> one week -- partly to test that the interval code works as it should,
> and partly so that people testing Jaunty pre-release are keeping up to
> date instead of lagging up to a week behind.

Makes sense.

Thanks for the heads-up,

Martin
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:03 AM
Alexander Sack
 
Default update-manager behaviour

On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 05:57:19PM +0000, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Mario Limonciello wrote on 20/02/09 17:09:
> >
> > I can think of cases when this behavior can be really disruptive too.
> >
> > Think about how annoying it would be if update manager was launching
> > while:
> >
> > * Watching a movie
> > * Playing a full screen game
> > * Any time spent in MythTV or boxee
> >...
>
> Whenever Update Manager opens automatically, it should open in the
> background. Please report bugs about specific cases where this doesn't
> happen, including what window manager you're using.

It seems that no-focus-on-map doesn't do the right job here on
compiz. It doesnt get focus (correct), but gets to front for me
(wrong).

Do we know how to do this in a way that will work on all WMs supported
by ubuntu?

- Alexander


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Old 02-23-2009, 09:22 AM
Michael Vogt
 
Default update-manager behaviour

On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 05:57:19PM +0000, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Mario Limonciello wrote on 20/02/09 17:09:
> >
> > I can think of cases when this behavior can be really disruptive too.
> >
> > Think about how annoying it would be if update manager was launching
> > while:
> >
> > * Watching a movie
> > * Playing a full screen game
> > * Any time spent in MythTV or boxee
> >...
>
> Whenever Update Manager opens automatically, it should open in the
> background. Please report bugs about specific cases where this doesn't
> happen, including what window manager you're using.

We start update-manager with "focus_on_map" set to false. I ran some
tests to see if it behaves as expected:

metacity:
- totem, gnome-terminal,firefox fullscreen:
+ opens behind the fullscreen app
- totem, gnome-terminal,firefox maximized:
+ opens behind the maximized app

compiz:
- totem, gnome-terminal,firefox fullscreen:
+ opens behind the fullscreen app (without priority hint in windowlist)
- totem, gnome-terminal,firefox maximized:
+ opens *not* behind the maximized app

So it looks like we need to make compiz behaviour better for maximized
apps to behave more like metacity.

Cheers,
Michael

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