FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Ubuntu > Ubuntu Development

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 02-18-2009, 06:03 PM
Bruce Cowan
 
Default Auto-launching of applications

update-manager is now set to auto-launch every 2 days. Even though I
have disabled this, I think it is not the right thing to do.

Apparently the window is supposed to open in the background, but I think
that users may wonder why a program is seemingly running without them
wanting it to.

Also, I'm sure I'm not the only person who doesn't use update-manager.

Can anyone explain to me why autolaunching programs is a good idea?
--
Bruce Cowan <http://launchpad.net/~bruce89>


--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
 
Old 02-18-2009, 08:12 PM
Mackenzie Morgan
 
Default Auto-launching of applications

On Wednesday 18 February 2009 2:03:28 pm Bruce Cowan wrote:
> update-manager is now set to auto-launch every 2 days. Even though I
> have disabled this, I think it is not the right thing to do.

The default has always been for it to check for new updates but not install
them. Or do you mean something different?

--
Mackenzie Morgan
http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com
apt-get moo
--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
 
Old 02-18-2009, 10:20 PM
"Siegfried Gevatter (RainCT)"
 
Default Auto-launching of applications

System -> Administration -> Software Sources, Tab "Updates", unmark
"Check for Updates".

There reasons why this is enabled by default should be obvious.

--
Siegfried-Angel Gevatter Pujals (RainCT)
Ubuntu Developer. Debian Contributor.

--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
 
Old 02-18-2009, 10:37 PM
Bruce Cowan
 
Default Auto-launching of applications

On Wed, 2009-02-18 at 15:23 -0700, Francis Earl wrote:
> > Can anyone explain to me why autolaunching programs is a good idea?
>
>
> I would imagine this has a lot to do with the target audience of Ubuntu.
> Users tend to do silly things by accident, and updates are very
> important, so closing the update applet would be ill advised - they need
> security updates and the like and are unlikely in many cases to actually
> check for them by hand.

It is not the applet I am talking about. The update manager window is
now shown every 2 days (however, it's supposed to appear in the
background).

My argument is that it could be potentially confusing, and people might
wonder why a window has appeared seemingly at random. Perhaps they may
think their system has been compromised.
--
Bruce Cowan <http://launchpad.net/~bruce89>


--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
 
Old 02-19-2009, 04:26 AM
Mackenzie Morgan
 
Default Auto-launching of applications

On Wednesday 18 February 2009 6:37:55 pm Bruce Cowan wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-02-18 at 15:23 -0700, Francis Earl wrote:
> > > Can anyone explain to me why autolaunching programs is a good idea?
> >
> >
> > I would imagine this has a lot to do with the target audience of Ubuntu.
> > Users tend to do silly things by accident, and updates are very
> > important, so closing the update applet would be ill advised - they need
> > security updates and the like and are unlikely in many cases to actually
> > check for them by hand.
>
> It is not the applet I am talking about. The update manager window is
> now shown every 2 days (however, it's supposed to appear in the
> background).
>
> My argument is that it could be potentially confusing, and people might
> wonder why a window has appeared seemingly at random. Perhaps they may
> think their system has been compromised.

Oh. OK, yes, that does sound weird. And yes, I would wonder if my computer
was possessed if it started doing that.

--
Mackenzie Morgan
http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com
apt-get moo
--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
 
Old 02-20-2009, 10:14 AM
Matthew Paul Thomas
 
Default Auto-launching of applications

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Bruce Cowan wrote on 18/02/09 19:03:
>
> update-manager is now set to auto-launch every 2 days. Even though I
> have disabled this, I think it is not the right thing to do.

The two-day interval exists to check that the interval mechanism works
properly, while still ensuring that alpha testers are testing recent
packages. For 9.04, the interval will be changed to once a week.

> Apparently the window is supposed to open in the background, but I think
> that users may wonder why a program is seemingly running without them
> wanting it to.
>
> Also, I'm sure I'm not the only person who doesn't use update-manager.
>
> Can anyone explain to me why autolaunching programs is a good idea?

update-notifier has always auto-launched, as long as it has existed in
Ubuntu. The only thing that has changed in Jaunty is how it presents
updates, when there are any. Instead of displaying an icon with a bubble
pointing at it inviting you to click it to show the available updates,
it shows the available updates directly.

The basic reason is that it's more obvious: a 22*22-pixel icon in the
"notification area" could never convey the idea that there are software
updates available to a usefully large proportion of our users, no matter
how good the icon designer was. An actual sentence saying "Software
updates are available for this computer" can do a much better job.

Previous versions of Ubuntu, like recent versions of Microsoft Windows,
have tried to work around this with a notification bubble pointing at
the icon, as if to explain to you what you jolly well should have
understood already if you didn't have such poor icon recognition skills.
But besides the slightly disingenuous tone, bubbles like this have a
couple more problems: either they disappear after a few seconds, during
which you might not have even been looking at the screen, or they
persist and get in the way of whatever else you're working on. And if
two of them happen to appear pointing at different icons simultaneously,
the bubbles collide messily.

To prevent these problems from recurring, Ubuntu's new notification
system does not allow bubbles to point at icons in the notification
area. This forced the issue for software updates: with a bubble saying
"Click on the notification icon to install updates" that didn't point to
anything, 95% of new users would have been trying to click on the icon
inside the bubble itself instead of the icon in the notification area,
up from the 50% who were doing that before.* So we had to change it somehow.

The other main reason for the change is that it's less work for users.
Instead clicking a little icon in the panel then clicking an "Install"
button, you just click the "Install" button. Even if you really don't
want to install updates just now, the close button for the updates
window is larger than the close button in the old bubble was.

As Siegfried has described, if you don't want to use Update Manager at
all, you can turn off the automatic checking. In future we will make it
more obvious how to get to that option.

* Percentages are wild estimates only.

Cheers
- --
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkmekKEACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecozAACcCx+73nvd8w klcUTYyXfagS/g
CU0An1+jKgicmrUIzvMl7wMeSYPi7Hld
=9xZM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
 
Old 02-20-2009, 11:49 AM
Oliver Grawert
 
Default Auto-launching of applications

hi,
On Mi, 2009-02-18 at 19:03 +0000, Bruce Cowan wrote:
> update-manager is now set to auto-launch every 2 days. Even though I
> have disabled this, I think it is not the right thing to do.
>
> Apparently the window is supposed to open in the background, but I think
> that users may wonder why a program is seemingly running without them
> wanting it to.
>
> Also, I'm sure I'm not the only person who doesn't use update-manager.
>
> Can anyone explain to me why autolaunching programs is a good idea?
additionally it would be intresting to know why the reboot icon isnt
shown anymore after you get critical updates, that seems like a security
risk ... you do an update and get the info to please reboot, but want to
go on with your daily work and click on "i will reboot later" then
forget about it during the day and run with an insecure system because
there was no reminder anymore ...

if we drop such important functionallity, we shouldnt leave the option
to skip the reboot or keep it the way it was, the current situation
fells very suboptimal ...

about the update-manager, i always thought our philosphy was to develop
software that doesnt get in your way (at least we did so for the past
years) slapping the user in the face with an update window simply doesnt
seem very ubuntuish, there must be a better way to achieve what we
want...

ciao
oli
--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
 
Old 02-20-2009, 06:49 PM
Chris Cheney
 
Default Auto-launching of applications

On Fri, 2009-02-20 at 11:14 +0000, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> As Siegfried has described, if you don't want to use Update Manager at
> all, you can turn off the automatic checking. In future we will make it
> more obvious how to get to that option.

As I noted in the bug report related to this issue we may want to have
the apt cron job that downloads packages list be more smart about when
it downloads them. Also, the cron job probably should be moved out of
apt as well into possibly the update-manager package(?) and have some
sort of network manager hook, so it doesn't get fired off when running
on a mobile broadband connection, etc.

Chris


--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
 
Old 02-20-2009, 09:13 PM
Steve Langasek
 
Default Auto-launching of applications

[Is this the best place to provide feedback such as this, or would you like
comments directed somewhere else, e.g., ubuntu-desktop@ or Launchpad?]

On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 11:14:45AM +0000, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> > Apparently the window is supposed to open in the background, but I think
> > that users may wonder why a program is seemingly running without them
> > wanting it to.

> > Also, I'm sure I'm not the only person who doesn't use update-manager.

> > Can anyone explain to me why autolaunching programs is a good idea?

> update-notifier has always auto-launched, as long as it has existed in
> Ubuntu. The only thing that has changed in Jaunty is how it presents
> updates, when there are any. Instead of displaying an icon with a bubble
> pointing at it inviting you to click it to show the available updates,
> it shows the available updates directly.

Minor nit here; in the past update-notifier has always been present and
running in the background, displaying an icon as needed. update-notifier
takes up about 20MB of memory on my amd64 system to fulfill this function.
The new behavior launches update-manager, which is a much more involved
program that takes up over 100MB when it's launched. I know this is small
potatoes compared to, say, firefox, but I think we should be aware of these
costs since in aggregate they can certainly be an issue.

Indeed, I would think that a user with a low-end system would find it
aggravating to leave update-manager open and taking up memory in the
background until they were ready to deal with that task, and be inclined to
close the window instead. Now, with no update-notifier icon at all, that
would give the user no way to get back to the updates without drilling down
through System -> Administration -> Update Manager. Personally, I find the
set of choices:

- leave the update-manager window open until you're ready
- hunt update-manager down in the menu when you're ready
- act on the update request immediately even though it's interrupting your
work to do so
- close out the window and leave security fixes unapplied until the next
notification (or the next, or...)

to all be unsatisfying compared with the previous behavior.

But then, I recognize that I'm going to be a hard sell here, because I was
madly in love with the earlier update-notifier behavior from the first
moment I saw it.

Cheers,
--
Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developer http://www.debian.org/
slangasek@ubuntu.com vorlon@debian.org

--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
 
Old 02-20-2009, 10:46 PM
Mackenzie Morgan
 
Default Auto-launching of applications

On Friday 20 February 2009 5:13:36 pm Steve Langasek wrote:
> Minor nit here; in the past update-notifier has always been present and
> running in the background, displaying an icon as needed. update-notifier
> takes up about 20MB of memory on my amd64 system to fulfill this function.
> The new behavior launches update-manager, which is a much more involved
> program that takes up over 100MB when it's launched. I know this is small
> potatoes compared to, say, firefox, but I think we should be aware of these
> costs since in aggregate they can certainly be an issue.

Ubuntu CDs currently say min 256mb RAM, right? So update-manager uses *half*
the total available memory? That sounds sub-optimal.

--
Mackenzie Morgan
http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com
apt-get moo
--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 10:08 PM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org