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Old 02-23-2009, 10:32 AM
Oliver Grawert
 
Default Auto-launching of applications

hi,
On So, 2009-02-22 at 16:59 +0000, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> Print out a screenshot, actual size, of the panel containing the
> updates-available icon. Show it to fifty people who've used computers
> before but haven't seen Ubuntu before, individually, and ask them what
> that particular icon means.
thats why $DIETY inventd tooltips, no ?
they will surely notice there is movement in the notification area if
the icon appears (or at least notice there is an icon they dont know if
they were afk while it appeared) its a one time thing to find out what
it is/does, the second time they will know it.
i dont think judging peoples skills like that is a good idea, when i
first used Mac OS9 in my life a decade ago (being a linux and win user
before) i didnt know half of the icons and their functions either until
i first tried them out an icon is not a bad thing as long as its
distinguishable and memorizable. indeed having it explanatory built is a
bonus, but as you point out 22x22 isnt the size where you can put in
much information, but still punching a user in the face with an app
window that will scare, confuse *and annoy* them and which additionally
adds another 100MB to our minimal system requirements (while we already
have a system that takes far less of your resources) cant be the answer
to that problem imho.

ciao
oli
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Old 02-23-2009, 10:38 AM
Oliver Grawert
 
Default Auto-launching of applications

hi,
On Mo, 2009-02-23 at 10:19 +0000, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> >> If your benchmark for of "those who do have proper icon observation
> >> skills" covers only a tiny proportion of the target population, it's
> >> a useless and disingenuous benchmark.
> >
> > It's pointless arguing this. I'd say that majority of the target
> > population do have proper icon observation skills. However, you would
> > probably proclaim otherwise. Why don't you do an actual study?
>
> We intend to, once Canonical's Design team is fully staffed. But we
> won't be treating it as a test of how many people have "proper icon
> observation skills". Rather, we'll be testing for what proportion of
> people an icon succeeds. That's an important distinction! Making
> software smarter is much easier than making people smarter.
so why dont you wait until you got proper hard data and come up with a
real revolutionary new design for the problem based on this data and
instead switch to an half thought through immature, resource hogging
and user annoying mechanism, sorry if that sounds harch but for me that
new beahavior is a big step backwards in usability, software needs to be
out of the way of the user, i dont want my hammer to discuss with me
about the nail, i just want to use it to get the job done ...

ciao
oli
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Old 02-23-2009, 11:02 AM
Ante Karamatic
 
Default Auto-launching of applications

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:32:27 +0100
Oliver Grawert <ogra@ubuntu.com> wrote:

> they will surely notice there is movement in the notification area if
> the icon appears (or at least notice there is an icon they dont know
> if they were afk while it appeared) its a one time thing to find out
> what it is/does, the second time they will know it.

While I'm not a fan of auto launched applications, I can confirm that
users[1] don't notice or/and don't update their systems. They don't see
that icon as something important and never click on it. They've used to
having lots of icons in Windows' tray and they just ignore them. In my
observations, users just don't care about updates. They would be
happiest if updates wouldn't exist at all. Second best thing to that is
not presenting updates.

Most of Windows users don't update their systems by them self. Windows
does that for them and they just click on 'restart my computer', when
*requested*. It's way easier than reading what updates are available
and *deciding* what to do.

A lot of people don't understand multitasking and having two
applications opened at the same time confuses them. A lot of people doesn't
use firefox' google bar. Heck, for them it's easier to type in
www.google.com, and then search for www.cnn.com, than just enter cnn
in google bar or typing in www.cnn.com into location bar.

[1] I'm takling about users that perceive computers as just a tool or
inconvenience in their work/life, about users that check mail, live
on facebook or every now and then use computer to listen to music or
type some letter in office tools.

my 0.02€

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Old 02-23-2009, 11:04 AM
Colin Watson
 
Default Auto-launching of applications

On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 01:49:46PM +0100, Oliver Grawert wrote:
> additionally it would be intresting to know why the reboot icon isnt
> shown anymore after you get critical updates, that seems like a security
> risk ... you do an update and get the info to please reboot, but want to
> go on with your daily work and click on "i will reboot later" then
> forget about it during the day and run with an insecure system because
> there was no reminder anymore ...

At some point after upgrading to the new notification system, I'm
reasonably sure that I got a dialog inviting me to restart now vs.
later. It wasn't a notification icon, but that didn't mean it was
invisible.

> if we drop such important functionallity, we shouldnt leave the option
> to skip the reboot or keep it the way it was,

I suppose this was a strawman, but hopefully I don't need to say that
forcing an immediate reboot after an upgrade would be completely
unacceptable for all kinds of reasons.

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Old 02-23-2009, 11:13 AM
Oliver Grawert
 
Default Auto-launching of applications

hi,
On Mo, 2009-02-23 at 12:04 +0000, Colin Watson wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 01:49:46PM +0100, Oliver Grawert wrote:
> > additionally it would be intresting to know why the reboot icon isnt
> > shown anymore after you get critical updates, that seems like a security
> > risk ... you do an update and get the info to please reboot, but want to
> > go on with your daily work and click on "i will reboot later" then
> > forget about it during the day and run with an insecure system because
> > there was no reminder anymore ...
>
> At some point after upgrading to the new notification system, I'm
> reasonably sure that I got a dialog inviting me to restart now vs.
> later. It wasn't a notification icon, but that didn't mean it was
> invisible.
yes, as i said above, i got the option to reboot later in a popup
window, but there is no long term reminder anymore
>
> > if we drop such important functionallity, we shouldnt leave the option
> > to skip the reboot or keep it the way it was,
>
> I suppose this was a strawman, but hopefully I don't need to say that
> forcing an immediate reboot after an upgrade would be completely
> unacceptable for all kinds of reasons.
indeed, its not a serious request, but it seems to fit the scheme we
seemingly recently start to apply to desktop design.
what i meant to say is that dropping a way to keep long term reminders
for actions like a needed reboot after security upgrades without any
kind of replacement seems odd.

ciao
oli
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Old 02-23-2009, 11:28 AM
Sebastien Bacher
 
Default Auto-launching of applications

Le vendredi 20 février 2009 à 11:14 +0000, Matthew Paul Thomas a écrit :
> The basic reason is that it's more obvious: a 22*22-pixel icon in the
> "notification area" could never convey the idea that there are
> software
> updates available to a usefully large proportion of our users

Hi,

What about letting the icon so user knows what it means can still use it
and auto-open the dialog after some days if the users doesn't do update?

Cheers,
Sebastien Bacher


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Old 02-23-2009, 11:30 AM
Emilio Pozuelo Monfort
 
Default Auto-launching of applications

Ante Karamatic wrote:
> While I'm not a fan of auto launched applications, I can confirm that
> users[1] don't notice or/and don't update their systems. They don't see
> that icon as something important and never click on it. They've used to
> having lots of icons in Windows' tray and they just ignore them. In my
> observations, users just don't care about updates. They would be
> happiest if updates wouldn't exist at all. Second best thing to that is
> not presenting updates.

Then why not do the following?

- Automatically install security updates by default.
- Revert the update-manager prompting change.

As Martin pointed out, there's no hurry in bug fix updates.

Cheers,
Emilio

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Old 02-23-2009, 11:58 AM
Alan Pope
 
Default Auto-launching of applications

2009/2/23 Emilio Pozuelo Monfort <pochu@ubuntu.com>:
> Then why not do the following?
>
> - Automatically install security updates by default.
> - Revert the update-manager prompting change.
>

Security updates automatically applied in the background to (for
example) firefox could break your currently running firefox
(foreground app). That would make users unhappy as they'd be blisfully
unaware until it's too late, when a popup tells them to restart
firefox.

Cheers,
Al.

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Old 02-23-2009, 01:56 PM
Bruce Cowan
 
Default Auto-launching of applications

On Mon, 2009-02-23 at 10:19 +0000, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> You and I (and most Ubuntu developers) are in a small fraction of people
> who are confident in clicking things even when we don't know what they
> are. Last year, a schoolteacher friend of mine -- who is much smarter
> and more well-read than I will ever be -- went to the trouble of taking
> a screenshot of his Windows screen, printing it out in color, and
> bringing it to me to ask what all the icons next to the clock were. The
> idea of hovering over the icons or clicking on them hadn't even occurred
> to him.

Perhaps you can explain to me why Evolution doesn't pop up automatically
every hour, as some people don't know what the strange envelope icon is.

I'd like it if my (rather long) post to this list was moderated, it took
me ages to write it.
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Old 02-23-2009, 02:20 PM
Mackenzie Morgan
 
Default Auto-launching of applications

On Monday 23 February 2009 7:02:17 am Ante Karamatic wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:32:27 +0100
> Oliver Grawert <ogra@ubuntu.com> wrote:
>
> > they will surely notice there is movement in the notification area if
> > the icon appears (or at least notice there is an icon they dont know
> > if they were afk while it appeared) its a one time thing to find out
> > what it is/does, the second time they will know it.
>
> While I'm not a fan of auto launched applications, I can confirm that
> users[1] don't notice or/and don't update their systems. They don't see
> that icon as something important and never click on it. They've used to
> having lots of icons in Windows' tray and they just ignore them. In my
> observations, users just don't care about updates. They would be
> happiest if updates wouldn't exist at all. Second best thing to that is
> not presenting updates.

That's exactly right. I explicitly explained Dapper's update icon to my mom
and siblings. I showed them how to get updates. I told them they had to do
it. I even tried pointing out that it won't likely force them to reboot the
way Windows always tried to. They don't care.

Having a window pop up won't make them install the updates. It'll just 1)
make them annoyed that the darn thing keeps asking them things they don't care
about 2) scare my mom into thinking that maybe she got a rare Linux virus
because the computer's doing even more things on its own than it usually does.

We can't really discount the type of user that sees something happen on its
own, thinks "VIRUS!" and hits the power button (or pulls the plug) without
even a proper shutdown...which is the type I'm used to living with.

(cron's been installing her updates since Edgy or Feisty)

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