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Scott Ritchie 12-15-2008 09:22 AM

Bringing Wine into Main
 
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After some discussion with a few core devs at UDS, I feel it is time to
formally propose that Wine be moved into main. Popcon says 10% of our
users have Wine installed already, and this is only the case today: we
don't even count Wubi installs, and some fraction of the 2 billion
Windows users would switch if we made Wine easier.

Wine is popular because it's valuable to users; when Dell announced a
line of Ubuntu-powered machines, the fact that they didn't include Wine
made a few news headlines. Wine wasn't ready at the time, however it is
rapidly improving. The question of how to include Wine is a pragmatic
one, especially if Canonical eventually offers support.

Obviously, no one could support every Windows application in existence;
indeed, with closed source applications we wouldn't even want to. This
makes Windows applications similar to proprietary drivers in Ubuntu: we
make it easy for users who need them, but users who need complete
support must look elsewhere.

A good model to follow is the one used for desktop effects in Feisty.
We presented them to the user as a sort of technology demo, disabled by
default, but available to those who wanted to try it. The warnings were
clear, and users weren't given grand expectations. Once enough bugs
were worked out in later releases, desktop effects became an integral
part of the distribution.

There are other benefits to being the first distro to feature Wine in a
prominent way (Corel doesn't count). Most Windows applications actually
function now, and virtually all will at least install. There are some
important exceptions, but even a small amount of Windows compatibility
is an excellent feature for Ubuntu. As Jono said at the beginning of
UDS: we can do what others do, or we can win.

Moving Wine into Main (or whatever becomes of main with the archive
reorganization) will require a fair amount of work. Most of Wine's
dependencies are already in main, but on amd64 Wine still requires
ia32-libs for about 15 packages that don't have separate lib32 versions.

I'd like to work on Wine in Ubuntu full time, however as a first step to
keep me busy I could easily spend a few months modifying these packages
to work properly in 32 bit mode on amd64. This is work that will have
to be done eventually anyway, as 32 bit Windows applications are going
to be around for a long time. The other option, shoving Wine into a
32-bit chroot, will be obsolete within a year or so as Wine adds support
for 64 bit applications.

Once the ground work is done there are a lot of UI elements to Wine that
will need to be written and incorporated upstream. Chief among these is
our program for handling double-clicking on an executable when Wine
itself isn't installed, which I myself will create. Wine upstream
meanwhile has agreed to implement other backend changes needed for
further UI enhancements that will need to be written, such as being able
to change the windows version emulated by right clicking a program and
selecting properties.

A partial list of the major Gnome-Wine integration tasks I'd work on is
on my wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScottRitchie - KDE versions are
also a possibility as well, although community help for them will be needed.

There's also great potential to build upon Wine as a platform for
porting applications. In theory, there's nothing stopping us from using
Wine as a means of creating a package out of an arbitrary piece of
formerly Windows-only software; Google has already done this in-house
for Picassa, however we could take it one step further and package
everything from the open source eMule to commercial tax software. With
proper packages, these programs would be easier to install and use on
Ubuntu than in Windows itself.

There are many other small issues to worry about as Wine becomes a more
fully integrated part of the system, however I wanted to bring the idea
forward now to get some feedback and explain what I'd like to work on
for Jaunty and beyond.

Thanks,
Scott Ritchie
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Scott Ritchie 12-15-2008 06:37 PM

Bringing Wine into Main
 
(``-_-““) -- BUGabundo wrote:
> Olį Scott e a todos.
>
> On Monday 15 December 2008 10:22:58 Scott Ritchie wrote:
>> Most of Wine's dependencies are already in main, but on amd64 Wine still requires
>> ia32-libs for about 15 packages that don't have separate lib32 versions.
>
> Thanks Scott for your HARD work with wine.
> Do you have any idea when bug 298611 can be fixed?
> Right now, on jaunty, wine (and all other apps depending on ia32) aint working (but the fix mention there does help).
>
> Thanks once again.
>
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ia32-libs/+bug/298611/+addcomment
>

I'm aware of it - all that's really needed is a few lines in ia32-libs
followed by a rebuild of that, then a rebuild of Wine. I've subscribed
pitti because he normally does these things for me.

Thanks,
Scott Ritchie

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"Odysseus Flappington" 12-16-2008 12:09 PM

Bringing Wine into Main
 
2008/12/15 Scott Ritchie <scott@open-vote.org>

(``-_-““) -- BUGabundo wrote:

> Olį Scott e a todos.

>

> On Monday 15 December 2008 10:22:58 Scott Ritchie wrote:

>> Most of Wine's dependencies are already in main, but on amd64 Wine still requires

>> ia32-libs for about 15 packages that don't have separate lib32 versions.

>

> Thanks Scott for your HARD work with wine.

> Do you have any idea when bug 298611 can be fixed?

> Right now, on jaunty, wine (and all other apps depending on ia32) aint working (but the fix mention there does help).

>

> Thanks once again.

>

> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ia32-libs/+bug/298611/+addcomment

>



I'm aware of it - all that's really needed is a few lines in ia32-libs

followed by a rebuild of that, then a rebuild of Wine. *I've subscribed

pitti because he normally does these things for me.



Thanks,

Scott Ritchie



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Not sure if this is relevant to wine going into main, but I have to admit, I find it very frustrating in Intrepid that whenever i stick in a cd with an autorun or windows executable, it comes up with an autorun dialog which i have to cancel and which i would never have used since im using crossover linux or cedega anyway.


Alex

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"Douglass Clem" 12-16-2008 03:11 PM

Bringing Wine into Main
 
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I just noticed the discussion that was started about putting Wine into main, so I figured I'd jump in with my two cents.

I agree that there would be some great advantages to having Wine officially supported, and that it would be great to make Wine usage easier for new users. However, I'm not so sure that having it installed by default would be the best approach. As Mr. Ritchie states, 10% of Ubuntu users have Wine installed. I myself have it installed on one of my systems. However, I'd not want it installed on any of my other systems.


Perhaps the method we use for Flash installation would work well for Wine. When a new user visits a website that utilizes Flash, they are notified that they need new software to run the content, and are offered to automatically have it installed. Perhaps when the new user clicks on the .EXE file, they could be notified with a window that explains the differences between software installation on Windows and Ubuntu, introduces them to Wine, and gives them the option to automatically install Wine and use it to run the .EXE they clicked. In addition, perhaps it would be possible to integrate a feature that pulls info about that Windows program from WineHQ.org, and tells them the probability of the program working well. I'm not sure if this last bit would be possible or not, but it would be a nice addition.


I think the approach I just outlined would be the best compromise, allowing new users to easily run Windows software, while not mandating that all users have Wine installed.


Douglass Clem
crashsystems.net

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Remco 12-16-2008 04:39 PM

Bringing Wine into Main
 
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Odysseus Flappington
<deriziotis@gmail.com> wrote:
> Not sure if this is relevant to wine going into main, but I have to admit, I
> find it very frustrating in Intrepid that whenever i stick in a cd with an
> autorun or windows executable, it comes up with an autorun dialog which i
> have to cancel and which i would never have used since im using crossover
> linux or cedega anyway.
>
> Alex

Is it not Crossover's or Cedega's job to disable it, or reroute it to
their app? Ubuntu can't support propriėtary software.

Remco
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"Odysseus Flappington" 12-16-2008 05:47 PM

Bringing Wine into Main
 
2008/12/16 Remco <remco47@gmail.com>


On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Odysseus Flappington

<deriziotis@gmail.com> wrote:

> Not sure if this is relevant to wine going into main, but I have to admit, I

> find it very frustrating in Intrepid that whenever i stick in a cd with an

> autorun or windows executable, it comes up with an autorun dialog which i

> have to cancel and which i would never have used since im using crossover

> linux or cedega anyway.

>

> Alex



Is it not Crossover's or Cedega's job to disable it, or reroute it to

their app? Ubuntu can't support propriėtary software.



Remco


Fair enough (even though the autorun dialog doesnt actually work).

But to
be brutally honest, the real reason I'm whinge-ing, is because I don't actually
like the idea of letting you run windows installers seamlessly in
Ubuntu.

Adding/removing software from Linux is designed around packages
and the package manager. This in my opinion, is an area that Linux has
profoundly innovated in. This is also a far superior system to how windows
works, and is symptomatic of the underlying development process that the
community employs.

Why make Linux work like windows? I don't believe it's
the best way of doing things. Newcoming windows users will just be disillusioned
by the fact that wine doesnt support all of their apps. And it'll distract from
the mental shift that's required in order to become a real
linux-user.

Perhaps a p2p-based repo with winelib ports of all popular windows apps is a bit of a pipe-dream though..

..then again, perhaps not?

Alex

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Scott Ritchie 12-16-2008 09:28 PM

Bringing Wine into Main
 
Odysseus Flappington wrote:
> 2008/12/15 Scott Ritchie <scott@open-vote.org <mailto:scott@open-vote.org>>
>
> (``-_-““) -- BUGabundo wrote:
> > Olį Scott e a todos.
> >
> > On Monday 15 December 2008 10:22:58 Scott Ritchie wrote:
> >> Most of Wine's dependencies are already in main, but on amd64
> Wine still requires
> >> ia32-libs for about 15 packages that don't have separate lib32
> versions.
> >
> > Thanks Scott for your HARD work with wine.
> > Do you have any idea when bug 298611 can be fixed?
> > Right now, on jaunty, wine (and all other apps depending on ia32)
> aint working (but the fix mention there does help).
> >
> > Thanks once again.
> >
> >
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ia32-libs/+bug/298611/+addcomment
> >
>
> I'm aware of it - all that's really needed is a few lines in ia32-libs
> followed by a rebuild of that, then a rebuild of Wine. I've subscribed
> pitti because he normally does these things for me.
>
> Thanks,
> Scott Ritchie
>
> --
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> <mailto:Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com>
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
>
>
> Not sure if this is relevant to wine going into main, but I have to
> admit, I find it very frustrating in Intrepid that whenever i stick in a
> cd with an autorun or windows executable, it comes up with an autorun
> dialog which i have to cancel and which i would never have used since im
> using crossover linux or cedega anyway.
>
> Alex

More worrisome is the fact that if you try and use that dialog it will
just error out entirely rather than opening it with Wine.

Thanks,
Scott Ritchie

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Jim Lieb 12-16-2008 10:24 PM

Bringing Wine into Main
 
On Tuesday 16 December 2008 14:28:21 Scott Ritchie wrote:
> > Not sure if this is relevant to wine going into main, but I have to
> > admit, I find it very frustrating in Intrepid that whenever i stick in a
> > cd with an autorun or windows executable, it comes up with an autorun
> > dialog which i have to cancel and which i would never have used since im
> > using crossover linux or cedega anyway.
> >
> > Alex
>
> More worrisome is the fact that if you try and use that dialog it will
> just error out entirely rather than opening it with Wine.
>
> Thanks,
> Scott Ritchie
I don't know too much about the current state of Wine but can't you use
/proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc w/ a .exe filter?
--
Jim Lieb
Ubuntu Kernel Team
Canonical Ltd.

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"A. Walton" 12-17-2008 12:33 AM

Bringing Wine into Main
 
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 5:28 PM, Scott Ritchie <scott@open-vote.org> wrote:
> Odysseus Flappington wrote:
>> 2008/12/15 Scott Ritchie <scott@open-vote.org <mailto:scott@open-vote.org>>
>>
>> (``-_-““) -- BUGabundo wrote:
>> > Olį Scott e a todos.
>> >
>> > On Monday 15 December 2008 10:22:58 Scott Ritchie wrote:
>> >> Most of Wine's dependencies are already in main, but on amd64
>> Wine still requires
>> >> ia32-libs for about 15 packages that don't have separate lib32
>> versions.
>> >
>> > Thanks Scott for your HARD work with wine.
>> > Do you have any idea when bug 298611 can be fixed?
>> > Right now, on jaunty, wine (and all other apps depending on ia32)
>> aint working (but the fix mention there does help).
>> >
>> > Thanks once again.
>> >
>> >
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ia32-libs/+bug/298611/+addcomment
>> >
>>
>> I'm aware of it - all that's really needed is a few lines in ia32-libs
>> followed by a rebuild of that, then a rebuild of Wine. I've subscribed
>> pitti because he normally does these things for me.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Scott Ritchie
>>
>> --
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>> Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
>> <mailto:Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com>
>> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
>>
>>
>> Not sure if this is relevant to wine going into main, but I have to
>> admit, I find it very frustrating in Intrepid that whenever i stick in a
>> cd with an autorun or windows executable, it comes up with an autorun
>> dialog which i have to cancel and which i would never have used since im
>> using crossover linux or cedega anyway.
>>
>> Alex
>
> More worrisome is the fact that if you try and use that dialog it will
> just error out entirely rather than opening it with Wine.
>

Patches to nautilus-autorun welcome ;).

(We'd love to support it when Wine is available and supporting the
disk makes since. [A Windows driver install disk would be silly to
support, for example.] We already have skeleton code in place for it,
but just needs some love).

-A. Walton

> Thanks,
> Scott Ritchie
>
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Scott Ritchie 12-17-2008 03:18 AM

Bringing Wine into Main
 
Douglass Clem wrote:
> I just noticed the discussion that was started about putting Wine into
> main, so I figured I'd jump in with my two cents.
>
> I agree that there would be some great advantages to having Wine
> officially supported, and that it would be great to make Wine usage
> easier for new users. However, I'm not so sure that having it installed
> by default would be the best approach. As Mr. Ritchie states, 10% of
> Ubuntu users have Wine installed. I myself have it installed on one of
> my systems. However, I'd not want it installed on any of my other systems.
>
> Perhaps the method we use for Flash installation would work well for
> Wine. When a new user visits a website that utilizes Flash, they are
> notified that they need new software to run the content, and are offered
> to automatically have it installed. Perhaps when the new user clicks on
> the .EXE file, they could be notified with a window that explains the
> differences between software installation on Windows and Ubuntu,
> introduces them to Wine, and gives them the option to automatically
> install Wine and use it to run the .EXE they clicked. In addition,
> perhaps it would be possible to integrate a feature that pulls info
> about that Windows program from WineHQ.org, and tells them the
> probability of the program working well. I'm not sure if this last bit
> would be possible or not, but it would be a nice addition.

This is indeed what I had in mind - we have no reason to add Wine to the
system until the user attempts to open an exe (or msi). In that way it's
much like the codec prompts.

Wine can't be installed by default for several reasons. The most
obvious is it won't fit on the CD - on amd64 Wine requires a few hundred
megabytes of 32 bit libraries to be installed. More interestingly is
that a good chunk of users don't need it at all - 10% is a lot, but not
100. Wine in its current form presents some clutter to the user
interface if it's not used, such as the entire Applications->Wine submenu.

Thanks,
Scott Ritchie

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