On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 08:18:27PM -0800, Scott Ritchie wrote:
> Wine can't be installed by default for several reasons. The most
> obvious is it won't fit on the CD - on amd64 Wine requires a few hundred
> megabytes of 32 bit libraries to be installed.

I think the second most important one (if not necessarily the second most
obvious) is that installing wine still compromises the security of the
entire system by forcibly disabling certain kernel mmap checks when it's
installed.

I really think that needs to be resolved before we should be willing to
promote wine to main.

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Jim Lieb wrote:
> On Tuesday 16 December 2008 14:28:21 Scott Ritchie wrote:
>>> Not sure if this is relevant to wine going into main, but I have to
>>> admit, I find it very frustrating in Intrepid that whenever i stick in a
>>> cd with an autorun or windows executable, it comes up with an autorun
>>> dialog which i have to cancel and which i would never have used since im
>>> using crossover linux or cedega anyway.
>>>
>>> Alex
>> More worrisome is the fact that if you try and use that dialog it will
>> just error out entirely rather than opening it with Wine.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Scott Ritchie
> I don't know too much about the current state of Wine but can't you use
> /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc w/ a .exe filter?

We already do that, but it errors out for some other reason. Sometimes
the error is due to case insensitivity in the autorun.inf file itself.

Thanks,
Scott Ritchie

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Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 08:18:27PM -0800, Scott Ritchie wrote:
>> Wine can't be installed by default for several reasons. The most
>> obvious is it won't fit on the CD - on amd64 Wine requires a few hundred
>> megabytes of 32 bit libraries to be installed.
>
> I think the second most important one (if not necessarily the second most
> obvious) is that installing wine still compromises the security of the
> entire system by forcibly disabling certain kernel mmap checks when it's
> installed.
>
> I really think that needs to be resolved before we should be willing to
> promote wine to main.
>

The upstream bug for this is here, by the way:
http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12516

I'd stop short of saying that disabling the page 0 protection is
"compromising the security of the entire system" since we didn't even
have it at all until Hardy.

Still, it does need to be fixed.

Thanks,
Scott Ritchie

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> This is indeed what I had in mind - we have no reason to add Wine to
> the
> system until the user attempts to open an exe (or msi). In that way
> it's
> much like the codec prompts.
>
> Wine can't be installed by default for several reasons. The most
> obvious is it won't fit on the CD - on amd64 Wine requires a few
> hundred
> megabytes of 32 bit libraries to be installed. More interestingly is
> that a good chunk of users don't need it at all - 10% is a lot, but
> not
> 100. Wine in its current form presents some clutter to the user
> interface if it's not used, such as the entire Applications->Wine
> submenu.
>
> Thanks,
> Scott Ritchie

I have to say this all sounds very exciting.

For those who are interested, I believe the spec for a lot of this is
here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BetterIntegratedWineSpec (correct me if
I'm wrong Scott).

When I get some free time I'll probably chase up the progress and see if
I can contribute in some way.


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On Monday 15 December 2008 05:22, Scott Ritchie wrote:
> After some discussion with a few core devs at UDS, I feel it is time to
> formally propose that Wine be moved into main. Popcon says 10% of our
> users have Wine installed already, and this is only the case today: we
> don't even count Wubi installs, and some fraction of the 2 billion
> Windows users would switch if we made Wine easier.

I'd wanted to make a long thoughtful comment on this, but I've run out of
time.

I don't think importing the Windows software model into Ubuntu is a good
thing. I think it's great to have Wine as a transitional crutch (and I use
it as such), but I don't think it should be part of any default install.

I'm all for making it easier, but I don't think it need to be in Main for this
to happen.

Scott K

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On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 07:45:51PM -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> On Monday 15 December 2008 05:22, Scott Ritchie wrote:
> > After some discussion with a few core devs at UDS, I feel it is time to
> > formally propose that Wine be moved into main. Popcon says 10% of our
> > users have Wine installed already, and this is only the case today: we
> > don't even count Wubi installs, and some fraction of the 2 billion
> > Windows users would switch if we made Wine easier.
>
> I'm all for making it easier, but I don't think it need to be in Main for
> this to happen.

I would basically agree with this. Some items I didn't see mentioned (or
missed) in the thread:

Supporting an entire second operating system is not how I'd like to
spend my time on the security team. I'd like to see an upstream fix
for needing the lower 64k of memory[1] so that people aren't forced to
lose that protection if they install Wine. Additionally, since Wine is
so good it emulates some worms and malware, we need to make sure that
Wine does not auto-run[2] executables. AFAIK, this is currently fixed,
but can sometimes sneak in via different avenues.

I recognize the utility of having Wine available to Ubuntu users, and
it sounds like there is a great plan in place to continue to improve it.
However I fundamentally see no reason for it to be in main. I made this
same argument about asterisk: putting something in main doesn't suddenly
make it better. Making a package better should be the goal in itself.

-Kees

[1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/wine/+bug/114025
[2] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/wine/+bug/85338

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On Dec 15, 2008, at 10:22 AM, Scott Ritchie wrote:

...
There's also great potential to build upon Wine as a platform for
porting applications. In theory, there's nothing stopping us from
using Wine as a means of creating a package out of an arbitrary piece
of formerly Windows-only software; Google has already done this
in-house for Picassa, however we could take it one step further and
package everything from the open source eMule to commercial tax
software.

...


I think it is good for Wine to be more prominent, if it works for most
programs and if the experience for programs that don't work is
understandable.


However, promoting Wine as a platform for porting applications would
defeat our intentions of giving Ubuntu a better user experience than
any other operating system. For consistency we should be working
towards fewer and more improvable toolkits over time, not more toolkits
that are less modifiable. We can enhance GTK and Qt and XUL and VCL,
because most of the applications that use them are also patchable if
necessary. But we can't alter Wine's presentation of interface elements
without risking incompatibility with large numbers of closed-source
applications.


Better to treat Wine like the Classic environment on Mac OS X -- a
compatibility layer for running legacy applications until the vendor
gets around to introducing a native version.


Cheers
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