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Omer Akram 08-09-2012 11:02 AM

Fwd: What do we do with the file manager?
 
Forwared to Ubuntu desktop list as well.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Georgi Karavasilev <motorslav@gmail.com>

Date: Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 3:46 PM
Subject: [Unity-design] What do we do with the file manager?
To: Ayatana Mailing List <unity-design@lists.launchpad.net>



Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, this has already been discussed like countless of time already and stuff, however a decision has not been reached, which is bit worrying.*Lets face it - there are a lot of choices out there, but none of them are perfect.

Nautilus 3.4 is the safest bet out there (feature and stability wise), however it has that horrid chopped down right sided toolbar and the back and forward on the right and neither of those two are even remotely good looking.

Nautilus 3.6 is pretty, however it is terrible chopped down feature wise and doesn't fit Ubuntu and Unity at all (super-menu and no menubar, hence no appmenu => no HUD, light toolbar (and all other apps have dark ones).

Nemo is the new kid on the block and that's pretty much all that's known about it.Marlin is the prettiest file manager there is out there, however it does lack stability (and maybe a features - MAYBE) and needs a lot*manpower.

last, but not least there is this patched version of Nautilus 3.4 -*http://www.webupd8.org/2012/08/install-solusos-patched-nautilus-in-ubuntu-1204.html, that could as well do the trick. It has full-width toolbar and back and back and forward on left.

Personally I am in favour of investing time and manpower in Marlin. Surely that's biting the bullet and it is bit risky, but it could pay off big time :)So, what do you say? :P



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Sebastien Bacher 08-09-2012 11:36 AM

Fwd: What do we do with the file manager?
 
Nautilus 3.4 is the safest bet out there (feature and
stability wise), however it has that horrid chopped down right
sided toolbar and the back and forward on the right and
neither of those two are even remotely good looking.


It would be easy enough to tweak it, but staying on an old
unmaintained version of nautilus is not a solution going forward.



Nautilus 3.6 is pretty, however it is terrible chopped down
feature wise and doesn't fit Ubuntu and Unity at all
(super-menu and no menubar, hence no appmenu => no HUD,
light toolbar (and all other apps have dark ones).


We could probably hack around and push the popup menu content to the
HUD if that's the only issue, the problem is that it's not the only
change so far (the drop of the menu means we have no "desktop menu"
on empty desktops at the moment, they dropped compact view, treeview
sidepanel, the lack of menubar looks weird in unity, etc)





Nemo is the new kid on the block and that's pretty much all
that's known about it.


it's basically a fork of nautilus 3.4 no?





Marlin is the prettiest file manager there is out there,
however it does lack stability (and maybe a features - MAYBE)
and needs a lot*manpower.







The elementary guys worked on top of marlin for this own file
manager as well:

https://launchpad.net/pantheon-files





Sebastien Bacher



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Georgi Karavasilev 08-09-2012 12:11 PM

Fwd: What do we do with the file manager?
 
Nautilus 3.4 is the safest bet out there (feature and stability wise), however it has that horrid chopped down right sided toolbar and the back and forward on the right and neither of those two are even remotely good looking.
It would be easy enough to tweak it, but staying on an old unmaintained version of nautilus is not a solution going forward.
Exactly what I think about staying on 3.4.


Nautilus 3.6 is pretty, however it is terrible chopped down feature wise and doesn't fit Ubuntu and Unity at all (super-menu and no menubar, hence no appmenu => no HUD, light toolbar (and all other apps have dark ones).
We could probably hack around and push the popup menu content to the HUD if that's the only issue, the problem is that it's not the only change so far (the drop of the menu means we have no "desktop menu" on empty desktops at the moment, they dropped compact view, treeview sidepanel, the lack of menubar looks weird in unity, etc)

Again, bang on the money. Whilst nautilus 3.6 works for Gnome it just can't quite cut it for Unity. *

Nemo is the new kid on the block and that's pretty much all that's known about it.it's basically a fork of nautilus 3.4 no?
*Yes, Nemo is Nautilus 3.4 fork from the Mint guys. However Mint and Ubuntu have very different design ideas and in mind, hence I think that Nemo is not the solution here.


Marlin is the prettiest file manager there is out there, however it does lack stability (and maybe a features - MAYBE) and*needs*a lot*manpower.


The elementary guys worked on top of marlin for this own file manager as well:
https://launchpad.net/pantheon-files

Yeah, there is also Pantheon-Files, but knowing the elementary guys Marlin will be much more open for contributions and ubuntui-zing. Elementary and Ubuntu have two different HIGs and there will be design issues poping out with Pantheon files. This one is a prime example:
Unity needs menubar => appmenu => HUD. Elementary apps depend on cog-menu button on the right, hence they are likely to not allow pantheon-files to have a menubar, even if it is optional.Marlin dev on the other hand (am-monkeyd) should be more open to Ubuntu contributions to Marlin, through I can't guarantee that 100%.

The reason why I started this talk is because there file manager issue is becoming more and more problematic as the time goes by and a decision must be taken sooner or later :) ... preferably sooner :P
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Georgi Karavasilev 08-09-2012 12:50 PM

Fwd: What do we do with the file manager?
 
The three things that Marlin misses are:A) StabilityB) Split screen (multiple panes) ... maybe?C) Ability to "draw the desktop' (e.g. desktop icons, right click on desktop -> context menu)
I believe (could be wrong) that those can be solved for 12.10 if the work starts soon enough.
And yeah, Xavier, nautilus 3.6 has too much to be fixed, waaaaaayy toooooooo muuuuuuuuuch.

All hands considered I believe that 12.10 should either user some pretty (no horrid chopped down right sided toolbar and no "back" and "forward" on the left) or a fixed version of Marlin.
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Sebastien Bacher 08-09-2012 12:54 PM

Fwd: What do we do with the file manager?
 
Le 09/08/2012 14:50, Georgi Karavasilev a écrit :

The three things that Marlin misses are:
A) Stability
B) Split screen (multiple panes) ... maybe?
C) Ability to "draw the desktop' (e.g. desktop icons, right click on
desktop -> context menu)
I believe (could be wrong) that those can be solved for 12.10 if the
work starts soon enough.



Ubuntu one integration as well

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Georgi Karavasilev 08-09-2012 02:49 PM

Fwd: What do we do with the file manager?
 
To be honest, there is so much work to be done in nautilus 3.6 that I find it hard to believe if it is even a choice here -_-
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"Jonas Platte" 08-09-2012 02:52 PM

Fwd: What do we do with the file manager?
 
I think so too. The only good feature in 3.6, that I can find, is the
black icon set for the left panel.


Am 09.08.2012, 16:49 Uhr, schrieb Georgi Karavasilev <motorslav@gmail.com>:

To be honest, there is so much work to be done in nautilus 3.6 that I
find

it hard to believe if it is even a choice here -_-


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Michael Terry 08-09-2012 03:05 PM

Fwd: What do we do with the file manager?
 
Maximal features should not be our goal. What's best for the default
install should be.


There are always going to be other file managers a user can install
from the USC for more features. We should pick a path that is best in
terms of maintainability for us and usability for across-the-chasm
users.


Picking one of the forks of 3.4 nautilus means that either we are the
sole stewards or we will conflict with the existing maintainers over
design goals (which sounds a lot like GNOME but with less manpower).


I don't think we have the energies to own a whole file manager. I vote
we just ride along with GNOME on this one and patch it to fit better
when running under Unity.


-mt

On Thu 09 Aug 2012 10:52:28 EDT, Jonas Platte wrote:

I think so too. The only good feature in 3.6, that I can find, is the
black icon set for the left panel.

Am 09.08.2012, 16:49 Uhr, schrieb Georgi Karavasilev
<motorslav@gmail.com>:


To be honest, there is so much work to be done in nautilus 3.6 that I
find
it hard to believe if it is even a choice here -_-






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Sebastien Bacher 08-09-2012 04:15 PM

Fwd: What do we do with the file manager?
 
Le 09/08/2012 17:05, Michael Terry a écrit :


Picking one of the forks of 3.4 nautilus means that either we are the
sole stewards or we will conflict with the existing maintainers over
design goals (which sounds a lot like GNOME but with less manpower).


I don't think we have the energies to own a whole file manager. I
vote we just ride along with GNOME on this one and patch it to fit
better when running under Unity.

Hey Michael,

I agree with that mostly, I think we have some issues with 3.6 we need
to solve at minimum:
- we need to get our "desktop menu" (the one you get when you are on an
empty workspace) back
- we need to get the HUD working back with nautilus (we probably need to
figure a solution for all apps using gear-icon-popup-menus)
- we probably want a traditional menubar back, the gear menu and the app
menu just doesn't work well in Unity and is different from all our other
apps
- I'm not sure what to think about things like the dropping of compact
view or extra pane mode...


We at least need to solve the 3 first items and we should have an
opinion on the last one.


I see 2 ways for this cycle:
- spend the time to fix those 3 items at minima and figure what to do
next at UDS
- upload nautilus 3.4 to the archive, have both for one cycle (they will
conflict but that's fine), default to 3.4, discuss what to do next at UDS


The second one is a "safer" option imho, especially if nobody has time
to work on fixing the issues listed previously.


Cheers,
Sebastien Bacher

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Didier Roche 08-09-2012 04:33 PM

Fwd: What do we do with the file manager?
 
Le 09/08/2012 18:15, Sebastien Bacher a écrit :

Le 09/08/2012 17:05, Michael Terry a écrit :


Picking one of the forks of 3.4 nautilus means that either we are the
sole stewards or we will conflict with the existing maintainers over
design goals (which sounds a lot like GNOME but with less manpower).


I don't think we have the energies to own a whole file manager. I
vote we just ride along with GNOME on this one and patch it to fit
better when running under Unity.

Hey Michael,

I agree with that mostly, I think we have some issues with 3.6 we need
to solve at minimum:
- we need to get our "desktop menu" (the one you get when you are on
an empty workspace) back
- we need to get the HUD working back with nautilus (we probably need
to figure a solution for all apps using gear-icon-popup-menus)
- we probably want a traditional menubar back, the gear menu and the
app menu just doesn't work well in Unity and is different from all our
other apps
- I'm not sure what to think about things like the dropping of compact
view or extra pane mode...


I agree with both views that are discussed here. Thanks seb for having
the list of what we can think of "minimum" feature we want :)


We at least need to solve the 3 first items and we should have an
opinion on the last one.


I see 2 ways for this cycle:
- spend the time to fix those 3 items at minima and figure what to do
next at UDS
- upload nautilus 3.4 to the archive, have both for one cycle (they
will conflict but that's fine), default to 3.4, discuss what to do
next at UDS
As the nautilus deep changes came by surprise this cycle, we didn't plan
any available workforce to get them back. Also, Feature Freeze is just a
couple of weeks away. My advice would go with the 2nd solution here so
that we don't rush and have a semi-finished product and additional
unknown bugs. Also we won't have to patch and repatch seeing how much
nautilus upstream trunk is moving at every 3.5.x release.

Then, we can discuss quietly at UDS about what to do.

Cheers,
Didier

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