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-   -   Accessibility always on in GNOME 3.6. (http://www.linux-archive.org/ubuntu-desktop/675598-accessibility-always-gnome-3-6-a.html)

Luke Yelavich 06-21-2012 10:52 PM

Accessibility always on in GNOME 3.6.
 
Hey folks,
So some of you who watch the goings on and discussions in GNOME upstream may have noticed this bug(1) and the surrounding discussion about enabling accessibility everywhere in GNOME 3.6. I've decided to start this thread for 2 reasons, first, a heads up that this is coming in both GTK 3.5/3.6, and GNOME shell 3.5/3.6, i.e the required changes to support this have been made in git master for both projects. THe second reason is to start a discussion as to whether we want to carry this, or revert the change and stick to what we have in precise, i.e enable accessibility with a gsettings key.

I would like to go with upstream on this change because it allows us much more flexibility in how we can offer accessibility profiles, and it opens up an avenue to create a system upstream to allow projects/organisations and individuals to develope and use their own custom accessibility profiles. There are also recent changes made to make sure there are no performance degredations for the desktop if no assistive technologies are running. In other words, you won't see any slow down in nautilus or other apps that have a lot of GTK widgets in tree views/icon views, unless Orca or some similar technology is running. The other upshot is that it allows anybody to use accerciser or other tools to quickly check their application for accessibility compliance, without having to do the gsettings log out and log in dance to get it enabled.

Yes we could revert things and go back to how things were, but it will be harder to carry sed patches in the future, and patches will need to be carried on several packages, at-spi, GTK, and GNOME shell, and maybe even clutter at the least.

I welcome further thoughts and discussion. If we decide to carry these changes from upstream, I'll make sure relevant patches are sent to our own projects, unity et al to work with these new changes, and will make sure to have the new atk-bridge library available ASAP when it is released, since GTK and GNOME shell will depend on it.

Luke

(1) https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=677491

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Robert Ancell 06-22-2012 12:02 AM

Accessibility always on in GNOME 3.6.
 
On 22/06/12 10:52, Luke Yelavich wrote:
> Hey folks,
> So some of you who watch the goings on and discussions in GNOME upstream may have noticed this bug(1) and the surrounding discussion about enabling accessibility everywhere in GNOME 3.6. I've decided to start this thread for 2 reasons, first, a heads up that this is coming in both GTK 3.5/3.6, and GNOME shell 3.5/3.6, i.e the required changes to support this have been made in git master for both projects. THe second reason is to start a discussion as to whether we want to carry this, or revert the change and stick to what we have in precise, i.e enable accessibility with a gsettings key.
>
> I would like to go with upstream on this change because it allows us much more flexibility in how we can offer accessibility profiles, and it opens up an avenue to create a system upstream to allow projects/organisations and individuals to develope and use their own custom accessibility profiles. There are also recent changes made to make sure there are no performance degredations for the desktop if no assistive technologies are running. In other words, you won't see any slow down in nautilus or other apps that have a lot of GTK widgets in tree views/icon views, unless Orca or some similar technology is running. The other upshot is that it allows anybody to use accerciser or other tools to quickly check their application for accessibility compliance, without having to do the gsettings log out and log in dance to get it enabled.
>
> Yes we could revert things and go back to how things were, but it will be harder to carry sed patches in the future, and patches will need to be carried on several packages, at-spi, GTK, and GNOME shell, and maybe even clutter at the least.
>
> I welcome further thoughts and discussion. If we decide to carry these changes from upstream, I'll make sure relevant patches are sent to our own projects, unity et al to work with these new changes, and will make sure to have the new atk-bridge library available ASAP when it is released, since GTK and GNOME shell will depend on it.
>
> Luke
>
> (1) https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=677491
>
This seems like a really good move to me. My only concern was over
performance but as you stated that's being resolved.


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Sebastien Bacher 06-22-2012 08:25 AM

Accessibility always on in GNOME 3.6.
 
Le 22/06/2012 00:52, Luke Yelavich a écrit :


I welcome further thoughts and discussion. If we decide to carry these changes from upstream, I'll make sure relevant patches are sent to our own projects, unity et al to work with these new changes, and will make sure to have the new atk-bridge library available ASAP when it is released, since GTK and GNOME shell will depend on it.



Hey,

So I've read the bug upstream and I'm not sure how they are addressing
the performances concerns, is the bottom line there "gtk3 has no
performance issues, a11y will not be turned on for gtk2 but only for
gtk3"? If that's the case, what does it mean for gtk2 applications? Do
we get part of the desktop accessible and some other parts not? Do
firefox and libreoffice use enough gtk to rely on the a11y to be turned
on in gtk2 to be accessible in an usable way?


Out of those questions I'm fine with follow upstream's lead there, we
should just make sure it lands early so we have time to test and have a
plan B to disable it again by default if that turns out creating too
much issues.


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Didier Roche 06-22-2012 10:26 AM

Accessibility always on in GNOME 3.6.
 
Le 22/06/2012 09:25, Sebastien Bacher a écrit :

Le 22/06/2012 00:52, Luke Yelavich a écrit :


I welcome further thoughts and discussion. If we decide to carry
these changes from upstream, I'll make sure relevant patches are sent
to our own projects, unity et al to work with these new changes, and
will make sure to have the new atk-bridge library available ASAP when
it is released, since GTK and GNOME shell will depend on it.




Hey,

So I've read the bug upstream and I'm not sure how they are addressing
the performances concerns, is the bottom line there "gtk3 has no
performance issues, a11y will not be turned on for gtk2 but only for
gtk3"? If that's the case, what does it mean for gtk2 applications? Do
we get part of the desktop accessible and some other parts not? Do
firefox and libreoffice use enough gtk to rely on the a11y to be
turned on in gtk2 to be accessible in an usable way?


Out of those questions I'm fine with follow upstream's lead there, we
should just make sure it lands early so we have time to test and have
a plan B to disable it again by default if that turns out creating too
much issues.


Hey,

The choice to enable or not accessibility has provided us the benefit to
change user session (knowing that unity 3D a11y support is not as good
as unity 2D one).
There is high chance that this will stay this way this cycle. How would
you see then how the user being aware about the fact that he should
switch his session on that case, meaning that if accessibility support
is really needed, switching to unity 2D?


Cheers,
Didier

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Jeremy Bicha 06-22-2012 12:46 PM

Accessibility always on in GNOME 3.6.
 
On 22 June 2012 06:26, Didier Roche <didrocks@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> The choice to enable or not accessibility has provided us the benefit to
> change user session (knowing that unity 3D a11y support is not as good as
> unity 2D one).
> There is high chance that this will stay this way this cycle. How would you
> see then how the user being aware about the fact that he should switch his
> session on that case, meaning that if accessibility support is really
> needed, switching to unity 2D?

Um, wasn't Unity 2D supposed to be dropped this cycle?

Jeremy

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Didier Roche 06-22-2012 12:58 PM

Accessibility always on in GNOME 3.6.
 
Le 22/06/2012 13:46, Jeremy Bicha a écrit :

On 22 June 2012 06:26, Didier Roche <didrocks@ubuntu.com> wrote:

The choice to enable or not accessibility has provided us the benefit to
change user session (knowing that unity 3D a11y support is not as good as
unity 2D one).
There is high chance that this will stay this way this cycle. How would you
see then how the user being aware about the fact that he should switch his
session on that case, meaning that if accessibility support is really
needed, switching to unity 2D?

Um, wasn't Unity 2D supposed to be dropped this cycle?
We don't want to regress our user experience, so we will drop it only if
Unity 3D has:

- llvmpipe and opengles support, with tested and acceptable performance
- accessibility support
- RTL support

Didier

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Luke Yelavich 06-25-2012 09:54 AM

Accessibility always on in GNOME 3.6.
 
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 06:25:22PM EST, Sebastien Bacher wrote:
> So I've read the bug upstream and I'm not sure how they are
> addressing the performances concerns, is the bottom line there "gtk3
> has no performance issues, a11y will not be turned on for gtk2 but
> only for gtk3"? If that's the case, what does it mean for gtk2
> applications? Do we get part of the desktop accessible and some
> other parts not? Do firefox and libreoffice use enough gtk to rely
> on the a11y to be turned on in gtk2 to be accessible in an usable
> way?

With regards to performance, upstream knows that there are still issues. If one is running an assistive technology like Orca, and opens a directory with a large number of folders and files in it using nautilus, there is currently a performance hit when the directory is opened, because nautilus/gtk/atk has to iterate through all of those entries, and create atk objects to associate with the GTK widgets in the icon view. How that will be solved long term I don't know, but the client tracking by atk and at-spi has been implemented to work around issues like the above.

The only change to the GTK2 module is to be linked against the new libatk-bridge library, which will do all the heavy lifting. The module still has the same symbols that it has always had. The only slight difference is that the GTK2 atk module will get loaded every time, assuming the GTK_MODULES environment variable is set or gnome-settings-daemon tells GTK the list of modules it should load. I think the libatk-bridge library has the smarts to go no further if it can't find the at-spi bus but even then, the same assistive technology client tracking comes into play as above, so no events will be emitted if there is nothing listening for events.

> Out of those questions I'm fine with follow upstream's lead there,
> we should just make sure it lands early so we have time to test and
> have a plan B to disable it again by default if that turns out
> creating too much issues.

It will land this week, and I should have the new libatk-bridge library packaged and ready to go in the archive by the time you and Jeremy get to updating GTK and gnome-shell, at least in source form. It will have to go through binary new due to new binary packages being added. Plan B will essentially involve reverting patches in GTK, GNOME shell, and at-spi2-atk to return to the previous behavior. I am pretty sure the gsettings key will stay around at least for now, and may or may not go away in future cycles depending on how well this a11y always on test works out this cycle.

Luke

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