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Old 02-29-2012, 08:11 PM
Chase Douglas
 
Default ClickPads and Click Actions

Hi all,

I'm sending this to both ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-desktop to try to get a
larger pool of feedback.


I recently added "ClickPad" support in Precise. This is automatically
picked up by most Synaptics and all Apple Macbook trackpads. It will
soon be picked up by more Synaptics trackpads and the Apple Magic
Trackpad. ClickPad support entails the ability to press the trackpad
with one finger and perform a drag by moving a second finger.


The problem we face is that currently "ClickPad" support conflicts with
"click actions". Click actions is the term for supporting right button
behavior by clicking on the trackpad with two fingers. This has been
supported for years, and has helped people perform right clicks on
clickpad devices before the clickpad support landed in Precise.
Unfortunately, we can't have clickpad support and click action support
at the same time yet (ran out of time for Precise).


One feature that hasn't been turned on by default yet is a right button
area. On Synaptics trackpads, the lower right area of the trackpad is
marked as a right button. If you enable the right button area and then
press with one finger in the area, a right button click will be emitted.


We can enable the right button area by default for all clickpads. The
problem is that Apple trackpads do not have a marking for a right button
area, and OS X doesn't provide such a feature. People coming from OS X
will have to figure out that we a) don't have click action support, and
b) if you click in the lower right area you will perform a right button
click. However, people coming from OS X also expect to be able to click
and drag with two fingers...


Our options are:

* Disable clickpad support by default
* Enable clickpad support, but disable right button area by default
* Enable clickpad support and right button area by default

We can have a different default for Apple trackpads and everything else.

The next Precise kernel will enable clickpad support for all known
trackpads by default, but right button area remains disabled. Until
then, you can manually enable support by finding your trackpad device id
using 'xinput', then running the following scripts:


http://people.canonical.com/~cndougla/enable-clickpad.sh
http://people.canonical.com/~cndougla/enable-rightbutton.sh

If you have tried all the options and have an opinion on which option we
should take, please send your thoughts.


Thanks!

-- Chase

--
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:11 PM
Nicholas Skaggs
 
Default ClickPads and Click Actions

Chase, I would try and make the use case of clicking and dragging along
with 2 finger clicking work. The other scenario could possibly be worked
out via a ppa or script for users who wish to change or otherwise enable
the split clickpad. I personally don't like the split clickpad idea and
I think making things standard for all users would be best. Aka,

1 finger tap/click = left click
2 finger tap/click = right click
multitouch click and drag = just works :-)

It's late and I'm failing to remember.. is tap to click configurable for
this? IE, I can tap the clickpad for a click, or I have to depress the
clickpad to register a click.

Nicholas

On 02/29/2012 04:11 PM, Chase Douglas wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm sending this to both ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-desktop to try to get
> a larger pool of feedback.
>
> I recently added "ClickPad" support in Precise. This is automatically
> picked up by most Synaptics and all Apple Macbook trackpads. It will
> soon be picked up by more Synaptics trackpads and the Apple Magic
> Trackpad. ClickPad support entails the ability to press the trackpad
> with one finger and perform a drag by moving a second finger.
>
> The problem we face is that currently "ClickPad" support conflicts
> with "click actions". Click actions is the term for supporting right
> button behavior by clicking on the trackpad with two fingers. This has
> been supported for years, and has helped people perform right clicks
> on clickpad devices before the clickpad support landed in Precise.
> Unfortunately, we can't have clickpad support and click action support
> at the same time yet (ran out of time for Precise).
>
> One feature that hasn't been turned on by default yet is a right
> button area. On Synaptics trackpads, the lower right area of the
> trackpad is marked as a right button. If you enable the right button
> area and then press with one finger in the area, a right button click
> will be emitted.
>
> We can enable the right button area by default for all clickpads. The
> problem is that Apple trackpads do not have a marking for a right
> button area, and OS X doesn't provide such a feature. People coming
> from OS X will have to figure out that we a) don't have click action
> support, and b) if you click in the lower right area you will perform
> a right button click. However, people coming from OS X also expect to
> be able to click and drag with two fingers...
>
> Our options are:
>
> * Disable clickpad support by default
> * Enable clickpad support, but disable right button area by default
> * Enable clickpad support and right button area by default
>
> We can have a different default for Apple trackpads and everything else.
>
> The next Precise kernel will enable clickpad support for all known
> trackpads by default, but right button area remains disabled. Until
> then, you can manually enable support by finding your trackpad device
> id using 'xinput', then running the following scripts:
>
> http://people.canonical.com/~cndougla/enable-clickpad.sh
> http://people.canonical.com/~cndougla/enable-rightbutton.sh
>
> If you have tried all the options and have an opinion on which option
> we should take, please send your thoughts.
>
> Thanks!
>
> -- Chase
>


--
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:18 PM
Chase Douglas
 
Default ClickPads and Click Actions

On 02/29/2012 02:11 PM, Nicholas Skaggs wrote:

Chase, I would try and make the use case of clicking and dragging along
with 2 finger clicking work. The other scenario could possibly be worked
out via a ppa or script for users who wish to change or otherwise enable
the split clickpad. I personally don't like the split clickpad idea and
I think making things standard for all users would be best. Aka,

1 finger tap/click = left click
2 finger tap/click = right click
multitouch click and drag = just works :-)


Well, the point of this thread is that we can't do all three . We're
past the feature freeze, and I don't have the time to hack up a solution
that enables them all at the same time .


Do you have a preference between having multitouch click and drag vs 2
finger click for right click?



It's late and I'm failing to remember.. is tap to click configurable for
this? IE, I can tap the clickpad for a click, or I have to depress the
clickpad to register a click.


Tap to click is still possible, and a two touch tap will still trigger a
right click. However, tap to click is not enabled by default. Check in
the mouse and trackpad settings for the option.


Thanks,

-- Chase

--
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https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
 
Old 02-29-2012, 11:07 PM
Nicholas Skaggs
 
Default ClickPads and Click Actions

Chase, I already had 2 finger tapping for right click in oneiric... This
would be a regression, unless I'm mistaken. The multitouch click and
drag is huge on the these devices, so I would have to say that's the
more important one. Are you saying you can do that along with allowing
right click by pressing the right side of the pad? If I didn't want to
split my clickpad, how else could I right click under your scenario?


Nicholas

On 02/29/2012 05:18 PM, Chase Douglas wrote:
> On 02/29/2012 02:11 PM, Nicholas Skaggs wrote:
>> Chase, I would try and make the use case of clicking and dragging along
>> with 2 finger clicking work. The other scenario could possibly be worked
>> out via a ppa or script for users who wish to change or otherwise enable
>> the split clickpad. I personally don't like the split clickpad idea and
>> I think making things standard for all users would be best. Aka,
>>
>> 1 finger tap/click = left click
>> 2 finger tap/click = right click
>> multitouch click and drag = just works :-)
>
> Well, the point of this thread is that we can't do all three . We're
> past the feature freeze, and I don't have the time to hack up a
> solution that enables them all at the same time .
>
> Do you have a preference between having multitouch click and drag vs 2
> finger click for right click?
>
>> It's late and I'm failing to remember.. is tap to click configurable for
>> this? IE, I can tap the clickpad for a click, or I have to depress the
>> clickpad to register a click.
>
> Tap to click is still possible, and a two touch tap will still trigger
> a right click. However, tap to click is not enabled by default. Check
> in the mouse and trackpad settings for the option.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -- Chase
>


--
ubuntu-desktop mailing list
ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
 
Old 02-29-2012, 11:20 PM
Chase Douglas
 
Default ClickPads and Click Actions

On 02/29/2012 04:07 PM, Nicholas Skaggs wrote:

Chase, I already had 2 finger tapping for right click in oneiric... This
would be a regression, unless I'm mistaken. The multitouch click and
drag is huge on the these devices, so I would have to say that's the
more important one. Are you saying you can do that along with allowing
right click by pressing the right side of the pad? If I didn't want to
split my clickpad, how else could I right click under your scenario?


First, I need to clear one issue up: tapping vs pressing. On a clickpad,
the user can tap by momentarily touching the touch surface without
depressing the touchpad itself. A press is performed when the user
physically presses on the touchpad so that it moves downward and causes
a physical button press to be emitted.


Under all options, two touch tap to emit a right click will work as it
always has. Note that tap to click is not enabled by default.


The issue lies with two touch press to perform a right button press. In
clickpad mode, this will not be possible and is a regression. The
options for getting right click behavior are: a) enable the right button
area or b) enable tap to click and perform a two-touch tap. There are
many people who hate tap to click, so relying on b would be bad.


If we make the assumption that right click must be possible, then we
either need to enable the right button area whenever clickpad
functionality is enabled, or we need to disable clickpad functionality.


The button area I would propose would be the lower right of the
trackpad, from half way across in the horizontal direction, and 18% of
the height of the trackpad.


It sounds like you are suggesting that multitouch press and drag is
important enough to impose this regression, so does that mean you are ok
with enabling the right button area by default?


Thanks,

-- Chase

--
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Old 03-01-2012, 12:22 AM
Bryce Harrington
 
Default ClickPads and Click Actions

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 01:11:30PM -0800, Chase Douglas wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm sending this to both ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-desktop to try to
> get a larger pool of feedback.

Here's some random thoughts. I don't have a fully formed opinion on the
topic, but maybe these general observations can help the discussion.


* There are several different loose categories of devices we're talking
about:

+ Integrated Apple pads in laptops

+ Apple magic touch mice, plugged in via USB(?)

+ Integrated pads in netbooks (like Dell Mini V)

+ Others?


* People have widely divergent views on how their pads should behave.

+ Changes to input behavior that can be perceived as a regression by
any group of users tend to spawn bug reports and/or complaints.

+ We can't please everyone.

+ We want to minimize the number of people who have to configure
things, that didn't have to configure things previously.


* Historically, we've not been prolific with X input SRUs.

+ Partly because many input "bugs" are just differences of opinion
about what options should be the default.

+ Partly because input bugs often involve patches that are complex or
invasive.

+ Partly because testing the changes requires a variety of input
hardware that many of us don't have on hand. (Testing can also be
rather subjective.)

+ Partly because video issues keep us fully occupied and we just
don't get to input stuff that often.


* There is a sense that people transitioning from Apple will have
different expectations than existing users (or windows migrants).

+ Do we have a sense for how many Apple migrants there are?
(I know they can be vocal, but are we expecting Apple
converts to Precise?)

+ While the hardware is quite pervasively common, Apple is not an OEM
customer for Canonical (well, AFAIK), so that may modulate the
priority here.

+ The defaults here for Apple hardware Could be different than
other pads.


* Many users won't know about gestures or how to use them.

+ Some have strong muscle memory in their fingers.

+ Some users just aren't that coordinated.

+ Some just hate change in general.


* My general rule of thumb for features in LTS:

+ When unsure of a new feature, include it but leave it turned off by
default.

+ Provide directions for enabling it in a wiki. That way we can
still get testing feedback and users who *really* want it will have
a way to enable it. (And 3rd parties can add it to Tweak tools and
so on.)

+ If it can't be defaulted to off, then put it in a separate package
or PPA, that people who want it can opt-in to.


The options are:
> * Disable clickpad support by default
"Traditional + ClickActions"

> * Enable clickpad support, but disable right button area by default
"ClickPad"

> * Enable clickpad support and right button area by default
"ClickPad + RightArea"


It's hard to construct a solid opinion on the options... so many
factors.

If we definitely want to attract Apple converts to Precise (or make it
easier for people who swap between OSX and Ubuntu), then it follows we'd
at least want to make ClickPad enabled by default for Apple hardware.
Do we have strategic guidance from Design or management on what we
should be prioritizing here?

However, what I've heard from many Apple laptop owners is that there's
so many little quirks and misbehaviors, that ClickPad-vs-Traditional
might be just one in a long list of support issues. If we fix that, but
as a result break something else, we may not really be gaining that much
in total. But I don't know.

Leaving Apple hardware aside, for non-Apple hardware where we don't have
expectations for ClickPad functionality, it seems like it would be safest
to leave that as Traditional + ClickActions. This assumes we can ship
one option for Apple stuff, one for everything else. If we can't, then
that seems to suggest we should stick with Traditional by default, and
wiki up directions for Apple users.

If we decide to move to ClickPad or ClickPad+RightArea as the default,
we better make sure we document how to revert back to Traditional (even
if it means installing some PPA with downgrade drivers or some such).
Otherwise we risk earning some serious bug reports.

Again though, these are just some loose thoughts, not a solid opinion.

Bryce

--
ubuntu-desktop mailing list
ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
 
Old 03-01-2012, 03:55 AM
Chase Douglas
 
Default ClickPads and Click Actions

On 02/29/2012 05:22 PM, Bryce Harrington wrote:

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 01:11:30PM -0800, Chase Douglas wrote:

Hi all,

I'm sending this to both ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-desktop to try to
get a larger pool of feedback.


Here's some random thoughts. I don't have a fully formed opinion on the
topic, but maybe these general observations can help the discussion.


* There are several different loose categories of devices we're talking
about:

+ Integrated Apple pads in laptops

+ Apple magic touch mice, plugged in via USB(?)


No mice. This only applies to trackpads.


+ Integrated pads in netbooks (like Dell Mini V)

+ Others?


These are actually becoming more usual for all laptops. I think most
Synaptics brand trackpads are now ClickPads.




* People have widely divergent views on how their pads should behave.

+ Changes to input behavior that can be perceived as a regression by
any group of users tend to spawn bug reports and/or complaints.

+ We can't please everyone.

+ We want to minimize the number of people who have to configure
things, that didn't have to configure things previously.


* Historically, we've not been prolific with X input SRUs.

+ Partly because many input "bugs" are just differences of opinion
about what options should be the default.

+ Partly because input bugs often involve patches that are complex or
invasive.

+ Partly because testing the changes requires a variety of input
hardware that many of us don't have on hand. (Testing can also be
rather subjective.)

+ Partly because video issues keep us fully occupied and we just
don't get to input stuff that often.


* There is a sense that people transitioning from Apple will have
different expectations than existing users (or windows migrants).

+ Do we have a sense for how many Apple migrants there are?
(I know they can be vocal, but are we expecting Apple
converts to Precise?)

+ While the hardware is quite pervasively common, Apple is not an OEM
customer for Canonical (well, AFAIK), so that may modulate the
priority here.

+ The defaults here for Apple hardware Could be different than
other pads.


* Many users won't know about gestures or how to use them.

+ Some have strong muscle memory in their fingers.

+ Some users just aren't that coordinated.

+ Some just hate change in general.


* My general rule of thumb for features in LTS:

+ When unsure of a new feature, include it but leave it turned off by
default.

+ Provide directions for enabling it in a wiki. That way we can
still get testing feedback and users who *really* want it will have
a way to enable it. (And 3rd parties can add it to Tweak tools and
so on.)

+ If it can't be defaulted to off, then put it in a separate package
or PPA, that people who want it can opt-in to.


This can be defaulted off, so having a wiki page with documentation on
how to enable it is possible.



The options are:
> * Disable clickpad support by default
"Traditional + ClickActions"

> * Enable clickpad support, but disable right button area by default
"ClickPad"

> * Enable clickpad support and right button area by default
"ClickPad + RightArea"


It's hard to construct a solid opinion on the options... so many
factors.

If we definitely want to attract Apple converts to Precise (or make it
easier for people who swap between OSX and Ubuntu), then it follows we'd
at least want to make ClickPad enabled by default for Apple hardware.
Do we have strategic guidance from Design or management on what we
should be prioritizing here?


I doubt it. AFAIK, I'm the only person in the world really working on it .


However, what I've heard from many Apple laptop owners is that there's
so many little quirks and misbehaviors, that ClickPad-vs-Traditional
might be just one in a long list of support issues. If we fix that, but
as a result break something else, we may not really be gaining that much
in total. But I don't know.


That may be. Anecdotally, Seth Forshee from the kernel team said missing
clickpad support was the only remaining niggle for him on the latest
Macbook Airs. Things maybe better than previously .



Leaving Apple hardware aside, for non-Apple hardware where we don't have
expectations for ClickPad functionality, it seems like it would be safest
to leave that as Traditional + ClickActions. This assumes we can ship
one option for Apple stuff, one for everything else. If we can't, then
that seems to suggest we should stick with Traditional by default, and
wiki up directions for Apple users.


AFAIK, all clickpads that are not Apple (i.e. are Synaptics brand) have
right button area markings. I think it makes the most sense for these
devices to have "clickpad + rightarea".



If we decide to move to ClickPad or ClickPad+RightArea as the default,
we better make sure we document how to revert back to Traditional (even
if it means installing some PPA with downgrade drivers or some such).
Otherwise we risk earning some serious bug reports.

Again though, these are just some loose thoughts, not a solid opinion.


I'm beginning to think that this is all so complicated even when we try
to be verbose and convey things as accurately as possible that nothing
short of "it just works perfectly and exactly how I wanted" will be good
enough. Although I think we are very close to this being possible, we're
just too far past feature freeze for it to land.


After the freeze is lifted, I'll upload a new X synaptics module with
ClickPad support but disabled by default for all devices. We can
document the feature on wiki.ubuntu.com and tell people how to enable
it. Next cycle I'll finish it by ensuring click actions are supported
too. Then we can turn it on without hesitation .


Thanks!

-- Chase

--
ubuntu-desktop mailing list
ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
 
Old 03-02-2012, 05:14 PM
Bryce Harrington
 
Default ClickPads and Click Actions

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 08:55:58PM -0800, Chase Douglas wrote:
> I'm beginning to think that this is all so complicated even when we
> try to be verbose and convey things as accurately as possible that
> nothing short of "it just works perfectly and exactly how I wanted"
> will be good enough. Although I think we are very close to this
> being possible, we're just too far past feature freeze for it to
> land.
>
> After the freeze is lifted, I'll upload a new X synaptics module
> with ClickPad support but disabled by default for all devices. We
> can document the feature on wiki.ubuntu.com and tell people how to
> enable it. Next cycle I'll finish it by ensuring click actions are
> supported too. Then we can turn it on without hesitation .

Alright, sounds like a good plan. Then LTS users will get it on
12.04.2 or via an SRU if that makes sense.

Thanks,
Bryce

--
ubuntu-desktop mailing list
ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
 
Old 03-02-2012, 06:04 PM
Chase Douglas
 
Default ClickPads and Click Actions

On 03/02/2012 10:14 AM, Bryce Harrington wrote:

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 08:55:58PM -0800, Chase Douglas wrote:

I'm beginning to think that this is all so complicated even when we
try to be verbose and convey things as accurately as possible that
nothing short of "it just works perfectly and exactly how I wanted"
will be good enough. Although I think we are very close to this
being possible, we're just too far past feature freeze for it to
land.

After the freeze is lifted, I'll upload a new X synaptics module
with ClickPad support but disabled by default for all devices. We
can document the feature on wiki.ubuntu.com and tell people how to
enable it. Next cycle I'll finish it by ensuring click actions are
supported too. Then we can turn it on without hesitation .


Alright, sounds like a good plan. Then LTS users will get it on
12.04.2 or via an SRU if that makes sense.


I'm about to upload. The only change is that I'm leaving clickpad
support enabled for clickpads with a separate physical right button.
These devices do not have click actions enabled by default anyways, so
there's no regression in behavior.


I'm only aware of two machines with such clickpads: Dell Mini 1011 and
1012 netbooks.


-- Chase

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