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Old 01-26-2012, 03:34 PM
Marc Deslauriers
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 11:28 -0500, Jorge O. Castro wrote:
> With tools like MyUnity now in universe, and didrocks putting basic
> configuration in the control panel I'd like to propose the removal of
> compizconfig-settingsmanager.
>
> I don't mean "stop telling people to use it" or "add a warning", I
> mean total removal from the archive until the tool is either better
> tested or doesn't break people's configuration. Here are some of the
> problems with the tool.

+1

Marc.


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Old 01-26-2012, 03:48 PM
Alan Bell
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On 26/01/12 16:28, Jorge O. Castro wrote:

With tools like MyUnity now in universe, and didrocks putting basic
configuration in the control panel I'd like to propose the removal of
compizconfig-settingsmanager.

I don't mean "stop telling people to use it" or "add a warning", I
mean total removal from the archive until the tool is either better
tested or doesn't break people's configuration. Here are some of the
problems with the tool.

- It's possible to accidentally uncheck the Unity plugin, breaking the
user's desktop.
- It has a load of checkboxes for plugins that we don't support,
allowing infinite combinations of untested options, which result in
either a broken desktop or a misconfigured one.
- People report these bugs, and instead of fixing real bugs we have to
deal with corner case bugs for things we never plan on supporting.
- Since it's settings are separate from Unity a "unity --reset"
doesn't fix it, you have to blow away .compiz or some other dotfile
directories to get a desktop back.
- Alex Chiang has documented some of the issues he's run into here:
http://askubuntu.com/a/80590/235
- I'm sure at UDS you've seen didrocks show you one of the ways it
breaks even when using parts of it that shouldn't break.

MyUnity is a better user-facing tool anyway for those that want to
play, it would be a shame to have the ccsm tool ship in an LTS. If
anyone cares about it they can plop it in a PPA.


OK, so:

How do we turn on and configure compiz enhanced zoom for visually
impaired users? (turning it on by default would be cool,
super+mousewheel to activate and mouse polling set to 15ms please) we
have some text cursor tracking arriving for this soon too.


How do we turn on the negative and color filter and
opacity/brightness/saturation plugins for users who like to use them or
for application developers to test applications to see how they would be
perceived by colorblind users?


How do we turn on a different switcher for people who can't get their
heads round the unity application switcher (that would be me) and want
to use shift switcher or the default switcher?


ccsm has not crashed for me in precise, it was pretty horrible during
the oneiric cycle but works OK now.


Alan.

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Old 01-26-2012, 04:02 PM
Micah Gersten
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On 01/26/2012 10:28 AM, Jorge O. Castro wrote:
> With tools like MyUnity now in universe, and didrocks putting basic
> configuration in the control panel I'd like to propose the removal of
> compizconfig-settingsmanager.
>
> I don't mean "stop telling people to use it" or "add a warning", I
> mean total removal from the archive until the tool is either better
> tested or doesn't break people's configuration. Here are some of the
> problems with the tool.
>
> - It's possible to accidentally uncheck the Unity plugin, breaking the
> user's desktop.
> - It has a load of checkboxes for plugins that we don't support,
> allowing infinite combinations of untested options, which result in
> either a broken desktop or a misconfigured one.
> - People report these bugs, and instead of fixing real bugs we have to
> deal with corner case bugs for things we never plan on supporting.
> - Since it's settings are separate from Unity a "unity --reset"
> doesn't fix it, you have to blow away .compiz or some other dotfile
> directories to get a desktop back.
> - Alex Chiang has documented some of the issues he's run into here:
> http://askubuntu.com/a/80590/235
> - I'm sure at UDS you've seen didrocks show you one of the ways it
> breaks even when using parts of it that shouldn't break.
>
> MyUnity is a better user-facing tool anyway for those that want to
> play, it would be a shame to have the ccsm tool ship in an LTS. If
> anyone cares about it they can plop it in a PPA.
>
-1, CCSM isn't just for unity, but any other desktop that uses compiz.
I'm wondering if other desktops even work with the newer compiz in the
archive. In any event, adding a Breaks unity to
compizconfig-settings-manager wouldn't be unreasonable IMHO.

Micah

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Old 01-26-2012, 04:04 PM
Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Jorge O. Castro <jorge@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> With tools like MyUnity now in universe, and didrocks putting basic
> configuration in the control panel I'd like to propose the removal of
> compizconfig-settingsmanager.
>
> I don't mean "stop telling people to use it" or "add a warning", I
> mean total removal from the archive until the tool is either better
> tested or doesn't break people's configuration. Here are some of the
> problems with the tool.

I agree with all the reasons you've outlined for why it's broken for
use with Unity. I've experienced it first-hand as well as see others
break their desktops.

However, I don't feel it's fair to all our users to drop
compizconfig-settings-manager, an application that is presumably
useful in environments other than Unity, just because it does not work
well with it. I'd be all in favor of making sure it's clear to users
that they can thoroughly break their desktop by using it. I do think
having the freedom to break your system if you so choose is pretty key
to Ubuntu, and I'm certain there are plenty of other packages in
universe that allow you to configure your system in a way that you
risk breaking something or that are incompatible with some desktop;
and that won't be dropped from the archive.

That being said, I use CCSM very rarely and wouldn't miss it.

Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre <mathieu-tl@ubuntu.com>
Freenode: cyphermox, Jabber: mathieu.tl@gmail.com
4096R/EE018C93 1967 8F7D 03A1 8F38 732E *FF82 C126 33E1 EE01 8C93

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Old 01-26-2012, 04:13 PM
Marc Deslauriers
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 16:48 +0000, Alan Bell wrote:
> On 26/01/12 16:28, Jorge O. Castro wrote:
> > With tools like MyUnity now in universe, and didrocks putting basic
> > configuration in the control panel I'd like to propose the removal of
> > compizconfig-settingsmanager.
> >
> How do we turn on and configure compiz enhanced zoom for visually
> impaired users? (turning it on by default would be cool,
> super+mousewheel to activate and mouse polling set to 15ms please) we
> have some text cursor tracking arriving for this soon too.

Maybe this should get added to the Universal Access section of the
System Settings app?

>
> How do we turn on the negative and color filter and
> opacity/brightness/saturation plugins for users who like to use them or
> for application developers to test applications to see how they would be
> perceived by colorblind users?

These could get added in a sane way to MyUnity or similar.

>
> How do we turn on a different switcher for people who can't get their
> heads round the unity application switcher (that would be me) and want
> to use shift switcher or the default switcher?

This is an advanced use case...you install ccsm from a PPA, and assume
the risk of using it.

Marc.



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Old 01-26-2012, 04:16 PM
Andrew Starr-Bochicchio
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Jorge O. Castro <jorge@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> With tools like MyUnity now in universe, and didrocks putting basic
> configuration in the control panel I'd like to propose the removal of
> compizconfig-settingsmanager.
>
> I don't mean "stop telling people to use it" or "add a warning", I
> mean total removal from the archive until the tool is either better
> tested or doesn't break people's configuration. Here are some of the
> problems with the tool.

How would this effect other use cases for Compiz outside of Unity?

Do MyUnity or other tools allow you to configure "hot corners?" For
years now, my workflow has included binding Scale and Expo to the two
bottom corners.

> - People report these bugs, and instead of fixing real bugs we have to
> deal with corner case bugs for things we never plan on supporting.

This is a very real problem, but simply getting rid of CCSM doesn't
sound like the ideal solution. From an Ubuntu perspective, identifying
buggy plug-ins and not installing those might make more sense. More
generally, the Compiz project should probably review what it can
realistically support. Simply nuking the tool to configure these
options doesn't make their code paths go away.

-- Andrew Starr-Bochicchio

Ubuntu Developer <https://launchpad.net/~andrewsomething>
Debian Maintainer
<http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=a.starr.b%40gmail.com>
PGP/GPG Key ID: D53FDCB1

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Old 01-26-2012, 04:17 PM
Marc Deslauriers
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 11:02 -0600, Micah Gersten wrote:
> On 01/26/2012 10:28 AM, Jorge O. Castro wrote:
> > With tools like MyUnity now in universe, and didrocks putting basic
> > configuration in the control panel I'd like to propose the removal of
> > compizconfig-settingsmanager.
> >
> > I don't mean "stop telling people to use it" or "add a warning", I
> > mean total removal from the archive until the tool is either better
> > tested or doesn't break people's configuration. Here are some of the
> > problems with the tool.
> >
> > - It's possible to accidentally uncheck the Unity plugin, breaking the
> > user's desktop.
> > - It has a load of checkboxes for plugins that we don't support,
> > allowing infinite combinations of untested options, which result in
> > either a broken desktop or a misconfigured one.
> > - People report these bugs, and instead of fixing real bugs we have to
> > deal with corner case bugs for things we never plan on supporting.
> > - Since it's settings are separate from Unity a "unity --reset"
> > doesn't fix it, you have to blow away .compiz or some other dotfile
> > directories to get a desktop back.
> > - Alex Chiang has documented some of the issues he's run into here:
> > http://askubuntu.com/a/80590/235
> > - I'm sure at UDS you've seen didrocks show you one of the ways it
> > breaks even when using parts of it that shouldn't break.
> >
> > MyUnity is a better user-facing tool anyway for those that want to
> > play, it would be a shame to have the ccsm tool ship in an LTS. If
> > anyone cares about it they can plop it in a PPA.
> >
> -1, CCSM isn't just for unity, but any other desktop that uses compiz.
> I'm wondering if other desktops even work with the newer compiz in the
> archive. In any event, adding a Breaks unity to
> compizconfig-settings-manager wouldn't be unreasonable IMHO.

CCSM breaks other desktops also, not just Unity, and novice users are
installing it to customize their desktop without being aware of the
damage they can cause. Other desktops should gain a reasonable settings
manager, much like MyUnity.

Having an advanced tool being used by a large quantity of novice users
and ends up leaving them with an unusable desktop is problematic.

Marc.




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Old 01-26-2012, 04:21 PM
Alan Bell
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On 26/01/12 16:28, Jorge O. Castro wrote:

- It's possible to accidentally uncheck the Unity plugin, breaking the
user's desktop.
Maybe make it a bit harder to do that, principally by removing the
depends on largedesktop. The reason people uncheck unity by accident is
because they want to turn on the cube. I think if you just drop the
depends line then it won't disable unity when you change your workspace
switcher from wall to the cube. If you uninstall wall and cube then the
workspace switcher stops working which is logical enough. If you want to
make it impossible to disable unity then you can probably do that


The suggestion to drop ccsm as a whole does feel a bit like "Unity
doesn't work right with other plugins, lets get rid of all the others"
when educating Unity to play nice with it's friends would be a much
better solution.


Alan.

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Old 01-26-2012, 04:22 PM
Marc Deslauriers
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 12:16 -0500, Andrew Starr-Bochicchio wrote:
> > - People report these bugs, and instead of fixing real bugs we have to
> > deal with corner case bugs for things we never plan on supporting.
>
> This is a very real problem, but simply getting rid of CCSM doesn't
> sound like the ideal solution. From an Ubuntu perspective, identifying
> buggy plug-ins and not installing those might make more sense. More
> generally, the Compiz project should probably review what it can
> realistically support. Simply nuking the tool to configure these
> options doesn't make their code paths go away.

Until someone fixes CCSM so it doesn't nuke people's desktops, I think
adding a big fat warning, or removing it from the archive sounds like a
resonable compromise.

Marc.


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Old 01-26-2012, 04:24 PM
Micah Gersten
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On 01/26/2012 11:17 AM, Marc Deslauriers wrote:
> On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 11:02 -0600, Micah Gersten wrote:
>> On 01/26/2012 10:28 AM, Jorge O. Castro wrote:
>>> With tools like MyUnity now in universe, and didrocks putting basic
>>> configuration in the control panel I'd like to propose the removal of
>>> compizconfig-settingsmanager.
>>>
>>> I don't mean "stop telling people to use it" or "add a warning", I
>>> mean total removal from the archive until the tool is either better
>>> tested or doesn't break people's configuration. Here are some of the
>>> problems with the tool.
>>>
>>> - It's possible to accidentally uncheck the Unity plugin, breaking the
>>> user's desktop.
>>> - It has a load of checkboxes for plugins that we don't support,
>>> allowing infinite combinations of untested options, which result in
>>> either a broken desktop or a misconfigured one.
>>> - People report these bugs, and instead of fixing real bugs we have to
>>> deal with corner case bugs for things we never plan on supporting.
>>> - Since it's settings are separate from Unity a "unity --reset"
>>> doesn't fix it, you have to blow away .compiz or some other dotfile
>>> directories to get a desktop back.
>>> - Alex Chiang has documented some of the issues he's run into here:
>>> http://askubuntu.com/a/80590/235
>>> - I'm sure at UDS you've seen didrocks show you one of the ways it
>>> breaks even when using parts of it that shouldn't break.
>>>
>>> MyUnity is a better user-facing tool anyway for those that want to
>>> play, it would be a shame to have the ccsm tool ship in an LTS. If
>>> anyone cares about it they can plop it in a PPA.
>>>
>> -1, CCSM isn't just for unity, but any other desktop that uses compiz.
>> I'm wondering if other desktops even work with the newer compiz in the
>> archive. In any event, adding a Breaks unity to
>> compizconfig-settings-manager wouldn't be unreasonable IMHO.
>
> CCSM breaks other desktops also, not just Unity, and novice users are
> installing it to customize their desktop without being aware of the
> damage they can cause. Other desktops should gain a reasonable settings
> manager, much like MyUnity.
>
> Having an advanced tool being used by a large quantity of novice users
> and ends up leaving them with an unusable desktop is problematic.
>
> Marc.

Because novices are using a power user tool does not mean we should
remove a power user tool. I think attention just needs to be called to
the problems that can be caused and what better tools exist for novice
users. Places like askubuntu.com and the Ubuntu forums would be good
places to evangelize this as well as omgbuntu and maybe webupd8.

Micah

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