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Old 01-26-2012, 09:55 PM
Jan Claeys
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

Jorge O. Castro schreef op do 26-01-2012 om 11:28 [-0500]:
> MyUnity is a better user-facing tool anyway for those that want to
> play

Based on the screenshots I found, the auto-generated UI of CCSM for the
Unity plugin is actually better (more understandable by normal users)
than the MyUnity UI. That doesn't sound like an improvement to me...

(I hope I was looking at screenshots of an outdated version of it?)


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Old 01-26-2012, 10:14 PM
Alan Bell
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On 26/01/12 22:55, Jan Claeys wrote:

Jorge O. Castro schreef op do 26-01-2012 om 11:28 [-0500]:

MyUnity is a better user-facing tool anyway for those that want to
play

Based on the screenshots I found, the auto-generated UI of CCSM for the
Unity plugin is actually better (more understandable by normal users)
than the MyUnity UI. That doesn't sound like an improvement to me...

(I hope I was looking at screenshots of an outdated version of it?)


I installed myunity in precise. It has an inconsistent user interface
which breaks accessibility (left and right buttons to swipe across pages
of options when a tabbed notebook would make more sense and be more
consistent) and it is not keyboard navigable. It has a rather lurid
green branding (with no transparency on this so you can see where it
covers up the dotty background) and is some distance from the pixel
perfect elegance of the rest of the unity stuff that has been built, but
this is OK, it can be fixed, it just isn't there yet in terms of looks.
More importantly is it a good framework for managing options and can we
add enough in there to satisfy the needs in particular of the people who
like the great stuff in the accessibility plugins.


Alan.

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Old 01-26-2012, 10:22 PM
Alan Bell
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On 26/01/12 23:14, Alan Bell wrote:

it is not keyboard navigable
I tell a lie, it *is* keyboard navigable, you can tab off the controls
on the first page and get focus on all the hidden controls on the other
pages (that you can't see because you are still looking at the first
page) and you end up turning off your font anti-aliasing and hinting and
messing up settings all over the place whilst trying to get keyboard
focus on the next page widget :-/


Alan.

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Old 01-26-2012, 10:28 PM
"Jorge O. Castro"
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 6:22 PM, Alan Bell <alanbell@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> I tell a lie, it *is* keyboard navigable, you can tab off the controls on
> the first page and get focus on all the hidden controls on the other pages
> (that you can't see because you are still looking at the first page) and you
> end up turning off your font anti-aliasing and hinting and messing up
> settings all over the place whilst trying to get keyboard focus on the next
> page widget :-/

Right, these sorts of issues with this tool (and ubuntu-tweak) are
what power user developers should be working on improving. Maybe
myunity or ubuntu-tweak is not the way to go, but what we do have
/today/ is a known-broken tool

As long as your list of criticisms is, there's nothing in the myunity
that can cause the havoc of ccsm, and I'd feel much better if instead
if we concentrated on fixing the actual problems (like the
aforementioned lack of a11y adjustment in the existing tools) than
shipping ccsm.

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Old 01-26-2012, 11:06 PM
David Klasinc
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

Is it better to have no tool at all or a tool that breaks time to time
and blows up the whole house?

Why I use CCSM:

- to fix positions of some windows (I want Xchat on second screen, first
desktop, Thunderbird on my second desktop, ...).
- to tell compiz to display size info while windows are resized.
- to tell compiz to open my windows on the same screen where my mouse
cursor is.
- to tell Unity that I want 32px icons in the Launcher

Does it crash? Sometimes. Kills Unity? Most of the time when it crashes.
And it is very annoying. But I keep using it.

However, I do agree with Jorge. Keeping CCSM in LTS is a terrible idea
from quality perspective. What happens in LTS, stays in LTS.

Someone will make a PPA and those who want will still use it. Myself
probably included.

Regards,
David

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Old 01-26-2012, 11:26 PM
Marc Deslauriers
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 22:57 +0100, Jan Claeys wrote:
> Marc Deslauriers schreef op do 26-01-2012 om 12:26 [-0500]:
> > Those are the exact places that are telling novices to install CCSM in
> > the first place :P
>
> At least partially because Ubuntu *removed* the tools that allowed
> end-user-friendly settings in recent releases...?

Oh? What tool did we have to configure compiz besides CCSM?

Marc.





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Old 01-26-2012, 11:27 PM
"Cody A.W. Somerville"
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Jorge O. Castro <jorge@ubuntu.com> wrote:


With tools like MyUnity now in universe, and didrocks putting basic

configuration in the control panel I'd like to propose the removal of

compizconfig-settingsmanager.



I don't mean "stop telling people to use it" or "add a warning", I

mean total removal from the archive until the tool is either better

tested or doesn't break people's configuration. Here are some of the

problems with the tool.



- It's possible to accidentally uncheck the Unity plugin, breaking the

user's desktop.

- It has a load of checkboxes for plugins that we don't support,

allowing infinite combinations of untested options, which result in

either a broken desktop or a misconfigured one.

- People report these bugs, and instead of fixing real bugs we have to

deal with corner case bugs for things we never plan on supporting.

- Since it's settings are separate from Unity a "unity --reset"

doesn't fix it, you have to blow away .compiz or some other dotfile

directories to get a desktop back.

- Alex Chiang has documented some of the issues he's run into here:

http://askubuntu.com/a/80590/235

- I'm sure at UDS you've seen didrocks show you one of the ways it

breaks even when using parts of it that shouldn't break.



MyUnity is a better user-facing tool anyway for those that want to

play, it would be a shame to have the ccsm tool ship in an LTS. If

anyone cares about it they can plop it in a PPA.
I oppose this suggestion; a more holistic approach is required.

1. How does a user getting it from the Ubuntu archive vs. a PPA solve the problems you list? In both cases, it is a conscientious decision to install and use the software.


2. There is a mechanism in the debian package format to indicate packages that do not play well together. Additionally, the package description can be updated to more accurately reflect the advanced and powerful nature of the tool.


3. There are many pieces of software in the archive. Some of them perform similar functions. Some are easier to use than others. Some can cause problems if used or configured incorrectly. This alone is not sufficient justification to remove packages from the archive.


4. CCSM is presumably also
useful in environments other than Unity.
5. We ship lots of software of questionable and variable levels of quality in the Ubuntu archive.

I would, however, be persuaded to change my mind if you were able to successfully argue for it's removal from Debian.



Cheers,

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Cell: +1 613 401 5141


Fax: +1 613 687 7368
Email: cody.somerville@canonical.com

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Old 01-26-2012, 11:57 PM
Mathieu Comandon
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

Hi,

I strongly disagree on removing CCSM from the repos but more importantly I want to make a point clear in this message. Deleting software from the archive has never been the solution to fixing bugs and I can't see how it will ever be. I am a heavy user of CCSM and while I agree that it's far from perfect, it does the job pretty well and lets me fiddle with Compiz's settings easily.

One thing I agree with is that CCSM does not play well with Unity and, yes, it's very easy to mess your Unity install with it. But I'm not concerned by that, I don't use Unity. The fact that I don't use Unity doesn't mean that I would be willing to use any other WM than Compiz, I just can't imagine using an inferior WM. Yes, there are bugs, some are annoying but i deal with it.

From my point of view, the fact that Compiz suffers from so much bugs is that the project is slowly dying, just have a look at the forums, the IRC channel, the git repo : it doesn't represent a healthy project. I can only think of one person who does an incredible job at keeping Compiz alive, you guessed it, it's smspillaz. A recent article on OMGUbuntu about that subject clearly shows the bad posture Compiz is in.

Every major distro except Ubuntu now ships with Gnome-Shell which comes bundled with mutter, which means that compiz suddenly has a whole lot less users than before. And even Ubuntu, which strongly relies on Compiz, is not fair with this project. The majority of bugs seen while playing with CCSM are only related to Unity, without Unity things are still not perfect but it's way harder to break one's desktop.

My opinion on this subject is that while I know that the Ubuntu Desktop team focuses entirely on Unity, it should also play nice with vanilla compiz because doing otherwise will only push compiz further down. What would happen if compiz were to disappear ? Would a stripped down fork appear, named unity-wm? I would personally see that as a huge regression and we would all loose the most advanced and most configurable WM ever made.

Of course, the correct way to solve this issue is far more complicated than just removing a package from the archive, it require solving bugs, bringing new code in Unity while avoiding unwanted side effects on compiz and basically requires more manpower. But solving the problem the good way would surely help the project Unity heavily relies on, and it *really* needs help.



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Old 01-27-2012, 12:04 AM
Marc Deslauriers
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On Fri, 2012-01-27 at 01:57 +0100, Mathieu Comandon wrote:
> One thing I agree with is that CCSM does not play well with Unity and,
> yes, it's very easy to mess your Unity install with it. But I'm not
> concerned by that, I don't use Unity. The fact that I don't use Unity
> doesn't mean that I would be willing to use any other WM than Compiz,

CCSM was breaking compiz desktops way before Unity came along. People
were breaking their Lucid desktops trying to get the cube working.

> And even Ubuntu, which strongly relies on Compiz, is not fair with
> this project. The majority of bugs seen while playing with CCSM are
> only related to Unity, without Unity things are still not perfect but
> it's way harder to break one's desktop.

I disagree.

> Of course, the correct way to solve this issue is far more complicated
> than just removing a package from the archive, it require solving
> bugs, bringing new code in Unity while avoiding unwanted side effects
> on compiz and basically requires more manpower.

If someone would step up and fix CCSM so a novice user can't mess up
their desktop with two mouse clicks, we wouldn't be having this
discussion.

Marc.





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Old 01-27-2012, 12:13 AM
Mathieu Comandon
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

If someone would step up and fix CCSM so a novice user can't mess up

their desktop with two mouse clicks, we wouldn't be having this

discussion.


Ok fine, I have some knowledge of PyGTK and I know the tool pretty well. I'll have a look at the bug reports on Launchpad and I'll see what I can do.

Mathieu


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