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Old 01-26-2012, 04:26 PM
Jo-Erlend Schinstad
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On 26. jan. 2012 17:28, Jorge O. Castro wrote:

With tools like MyUnity now in universe, and didrocks putting basic
configuration in the control panel I'd like to propose the removal of
compizconfig-settingsmanager.

I don't mean "stop telling people to use it" or "add a warning", I
mean total removal from the archive until the tool is either better
tested or doesn't break people's configuration. Here are some of the
problems with the tool.


I am opposed to that kind of enforcement. I think the best way to handle
these kinds of situations in general, is by creating better alternatives
and then educating the users.


However, an acceptable compromise would be to remove Unity from ccsm.
Since Unity currently seems to be the main attraction to ccsm, this
might solve the problem without creating any problems for other Compiz
users.


That's my tuppece.

Jo-Erlend Schinstad

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Old 01-26-2012, 04:26 PM
Marc Deslauriers
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 11:24 -0600, Micah Gersten wrote:
> > CCSM breaks other desktops also, not just Unity, and novice users are
> > installing it to customize their desktop without being aware of the
> > damage they can cause. Other desktops should gain a reasonable settings
> > manager, much like MyUnity.
> >
> > Having an advanced tool being used by a large quantity of novice users
> > and ends up leaving them with an unusable desktop is problematic.
> >
> > Marc.
>
> Because novices are using a power user tool does not mean we should
> remove a power user tool. I think attention just needs to be called to
> the problems that can be caused and what better tools exist for novice
> users. Places like askubuntu.com and the Ubuntu forums would be good
> places to evangelize this as well as omgbuntu and maybe webupd8.

Those are the exact places that are telling novices to install CCSM in
the first place :P

Marc.



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Old 01-26-2012, 04:55 PM
"Jorge O. Castro"
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 12:24 PM, Micah Gersten <micahg@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> Because novices are using a power user tool does not mean we should
> remove a power user tool. *I think attention just needs to be called to
> the problems that can be caused and what better tools exist for novice
> users. Places like askubuntu.com and the Ubuntu forums would be good
> places to evangelize this as well as omgbuntu and maybe webupd8.

We have a power user tool, MyUnity. If it doesn't do exactly what
people want then people will file bugs and then people will either
write the config option or not.

Then we'll have a power user tool that will work. And we do try to
warn people about the dangers of CCSM, but this is one of those cases
where we need to say "Sorry, you can't switch to the cube" instead of
"well you can switch to the cube, but if you fail the saving throw
your desktop turns into a wallpaper with no panels, no launcher, and
no file manager and removing these dot directories, but hey, linux is
about choice!"





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Old 01-26-2012, 05:24 PM
Micah Gersten
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On 01/26/2012 11:55 AM, Jorge O. Castro wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 12:24 PM, Micah Gersten <micahg@ubuntu.com> wrote:
>> Because novices are using a power user tool does not mean we should
>> remove a power user tool. I think attention just needs to be called to
>> the problems that can be caused and what better tools exist for novice
>> users. Places like askubuntu.com and the Ubuntu forums would be good
>> places to evangelize this as well as omgbuntu and maybe webupd8.
>
> We have a power user tool, MyUnity. If it doesn't do exactly what
> people want then people will file bugs and then people will either
> write the config option or not.
>
> Then we'll have a power user tool that will work. And we do try to
> warn people about the dangers of CCSM, but this is one of those cases
> where we need to say "Sorry, you can't switch to the cube" instead of
> "well you can switch to the cube, but if you fail the saving throw
> your desktop turns into a wallpaper with no panels, no launcher, and
> no file manager and removing these dot directories, but hey, linux is
> about choice!"


You're missing a key point here that Compiz and CCSM are not Unity. If
you want to make it so CCSM doesn't work with Unity, that's fine, but
don't hijack the Compiz configuration for non-Unity users.

Micah

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Old 01-26-2012, 07:19 PM
Chris Coulson
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On 26/01/12 18:24, Micah Gersten wrote:


On 01/26/2012 11:55 AM, Jorge O. Castro wrote:

On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 12:24 PM, Micah Gersten<micahg@ubuntu.com> wrote:

Because novices are using a power user tool does not mean we should
remove a power user tool. I think attention just needs to be called to
the problems that can be caused and what better tools exist for novice
users. Places like askubuntu.com and the Ubuntu forums would be good
places to evangelize this as well as omgbuntu and maybe webupd8.

We have a power user tool, MyUnity. If it doesn't do exactly what
people want then people will file bugs and then people will either
write the config option or not.

Then we'll have a power user tool that will work. And we do try to
warn people about the dangers of CCSM, but this is one of those cases
where we need to say "Sorry, you can't switch to the cube" instead of
"well you can switch to the cube, but if you fail the saving throw
your desktop turns into a wallpaper with no panels, no launcher, and
no file manager and removing these dot directories, but hey, linux is
about choice!"


You're missing a key point here that Compiz and CCSM are not Unity. If
you want to make it so CCSM doesn't work with Unity, that's fine, but
don't hijack the Compiz configuration for non-Unity users.

Micah



Hi,

Personally, I'm in favour of removing this. I was surprised at the
number of people I met in Orlando who had hosed their Unity session
after running CCSM. If developers attending UDS are doing this and
finding it difficult to recover from, then I'd hate to think what sort
of experience ordinary users are having with it, and what this is doing
for our reputation.


As others have pointed out, there are some useful settings that would be
good to have in other configuration panels. The zoom settings being a
perfect example - in fact, I can't believe we are asking visually
impaired users to use CCSM to enable functionality like this. Aside from
the fact that this tool is dangerous, the UI is terrible.


Gconf-editor exists for people who really want to mess around with
advanced settings in compiz. CCSM is pretty much just a dump of
everything you can tweak in gconf already (but with some icons and
sliders), which means that it isn't really any better from a UI
perspective. However, it's more difficult to hose your compiz
configuration in gconf-editor (enabling/disabling plugins requires you
to edit a list rather than clicking a checkbox, and there is no obvious
way to do silly things like changing the configuration backend).


AFAICT, we don't provide UI's that expose every hidden preference for
any other piece of software (we expect that people will use
gconf-editor/dconf-editor or whatever for tweaking advanced settings),
so I don't see why compiz should be all that different really.


And I don't think power users will really miss something like CCSM.
Power users will just use the same tools that they have always used to
tweak advanced settings in other applications. CCSM isn't a power user
tool, but a loaded gun packaged in to a graphical UI that gives novice
users a false sense of security.


Regards
Chris

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Old 01-26-2012, 08:47 PM
Chow Loong Jin
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On 27/01/2012 04:19, Chris Coulson wrote:
> On 26/01/12 18:24, Micah Gersten wrote:
>>
>> On 01/26/2012 11:55 AM, Jorge O. Castro wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 12:24 PM, Micah Gersten<micahg@ubuntu.com> wrote:
>>>> Because novices are using a power user tool does not mean we should
>>>> remove a power user tool. I think attention just needs to be called to
>>>> the problems that can be caused and what better tools exist for novice
>>>> users. Places like askubuntu.com and the Ubuntu forums would be good
>>>> places to evangelize this as well as omgbuntu and maybe webupd8.
>>> We have a power user tool, MyUnity. If it doesn't do exactly what
>>> people want then people will file bugs and then people will either
>>> write the config option or not.
>>>
>>> Then we'll have a power user tool that will work. And we do try to
>>> warn people about the dangers of CCSM, but this is one of those cases
>>> where we need to say "Sorry, you can't switch to the cube" instead of
>>> "well you can switch to the cube, but if you fail the saving throw
>>> your desktop turns into a wallpaper with no panels, no launcher, and
>>> no file manager and removing these dot directories, but hey, linux is
>>> about choice!"
>>
>> You're missing a key point here that Compiz and CCSM are not Unity. If
>> you want to make it so CCSM doesn't work with Unity, that's fine, but
>> don't hijack the Compiz configuration for non-Unity users.
>>
>> Micah
>>
>
> Hi,
>
> Personally, I'm in favour of removing this. I was surprised at the number of
> people I met in Orlando who had hosed their Unity session after running CCSM. If
> developers attending UDS are doing this and finding it difficult to recover
> from, then I'd hate to think what sort of experience ordinary users are having
> with it, and what this is doing for our reputation.

Then patch it to add a warning notice on startup, or something.

> As others have pointed out, there are some useful settings that would be good to
> have in other configuration panels. The zoom settings being a perfect example -
> in fact, I can't believe we are asking visually impaired users to use CCSM to
> enable functionality like this. Aside from the fact that this tool is dangerous,
> the UI is terrible.

Really? I think it's a step up from gconf-editor, personally. It's also my
primary means of configuring my Compiz installation.

> Gconf-editor exists for people who really want to mess around with advanced
> settings in compiz. CCSM is pretty much just a dump of everything you can tweak
> in gconf already (but with some icons and sliders), which means that it isn't
> really any better from a UI perspective. However, it's more difficult to hose
> your compiz configuration in gconf-editor (enabling/disabling plugins requires
> you to edit a list rather than clicking a checkbox, and there is no obvious way
> to do silly things like changing the configuration backend).
>
> AFAICT, we don't provide UI's that expose every hidden preference for any other
> piece of software (we expect that people will use gconf-editor/dconf-editor or
> whatever for tweaking advanced settings), so I don't see why compiz should be
> all that different really.

Because Compiz has a really hard-to-get-right plugin ordering that CCSM handles
automatically.

And detection for keybinding conflicts.

And if that's not enough, try setting window matching rules for say, the
animation plugin in gconf without the help of CCSM.

> And I don't think power users will really miss something like CCSM. Power users
> will just use the same tools that they have always used to tweak advanced
> settings in other applications. CCSM isn't a power user tool, but a loaded gun
> packaged in to a graphical UI that gives novice users a false sense of security.

I definitely will miss it, and I'm sure I won't be the only one. If CCSM was
removed from Ubuntu, it'll most probably make it into a PPA. Then the situation
won't change much, apart from more bad blood between Ubuntu and the said power
users, and maybe a less well-maintained CCSM package.

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Old 01-26-2012, 08:57 PM
Jan Claeys
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

Marc Deslauriers schreef op do 26-01-2012 om 12:26 [-0500]:
> Those are the exact places that are telling novices to install CCSM in
> the first place :P

At least partially because Ubuntu *removed* the tools that allowed
end-user-friendly settings in recent releases...?


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Old 01-26-2012, 09:10 PM
Sebastien Bacher
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

Le 26/01/2012 17:28, Jorge O. Castro a écrit :

to propose the removal of
compizconfig-settingsmanager.

I don't mean "stop telling people to use it" or "add a warning", I
mean total removal from the archive until the tool is either better
tested or doesn't break people's configuration. Here are some of the
problems with the tool.


Hi,

I've read some of the emails and rather than replying to different ones
I will summarize there my though (which changed a bit reading the
discussion):


- ccsm is not a good ui, it exposes lot of broken or untested options
and makes easy for users to break their system
- ideally we would drop those options, work is done to clean compiz but
realistically that's not going to happen
- ccsm might please a technical minority, those users are able to enable
a ppa if they really want to shot themself in the feet
- the issue is not specific to unity session, GNOME classic users for
example get screwed the same way


Reading user comments ccsm is a real issue for Ubuntu and its users, lot
of forums and sites recommends using it to tweak options and in result
lot of users break their system and give up on Ubuntu thinking the
system is unstable and buggy, that's a problem that cost a lot to Ubuntu
and its community, we should not ignore that.


The issue is that if we drop ccsm from the archive but it gets added to
a ppa and users get pointed to it the result will be similar, it might
get harder to install but it will still screw users...so maybe what we
should do is keep it in the archive but add warnings like make users
type "I know I might screw my system by using that tool" or similar to
access to it...
One part of the issues is also user education, having better tools where
we can direct users to should help to reduce the "you should try ccsm"
though


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Old 01-26-2012, 09:16 PM
"Jorge O. Castro"
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Chow Loong Jin <hyperair@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> I definitely will miss it, and I'm sure I won't be the only one. If CCSM was
> removed from Ubuntu, it'll most probably make it into a PPA. Then the situation
> won't change much, apart from more bad blood between Ubuntu and the said power
> users, and maybe a less well-maintained CCSM package.

I think power users would appreciate a maintained tool that let them
configure unity (either myunity or ubuntu-tweak, whatever) than a tool
we know carries risk.

If anything this is a great improvement for power users that want to
configure unity but don't want to risk using an unsupported tool.

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Old 01-26-2012, 09:38 PM
Jan Claeys
 
Default It's time to jettison CCSM

Alan Bell schreef op do 26-01-2012 om 17:21 [+0000]:
> The suggestion to drop ccsm as a whole does feel a bit like "Unity
> doesn't work right with other plugins, lets get rid of all the others"
> when educating Unity to play nice with it's friends would be a much
> better solution.

+1 on that

Also, many people use CCSM because of bugs[*] and deficiencies[*] in the
"Unity experience" (the selection of default compiz plugins for Unity),
not because they like to break their system. And it doesn't seem like
MyUnity addresses all those bugs & problems...

Actually, based on screenshots it seems like CCSM's auto-generated UI is
more understandable than that of MyUnity (although I might have seen an
outdated screenshot--I hope so).
[*] yes, the most important ones have bug reports on Launchpad.


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