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Old 11-08-2011, 04:25 PM
Oliver Grawert
 
Default Default Music Player in Ubuntu 12.04

hi,
On Tue, 08 Nov 2011 15:15:38 +0800
Chow Loong Jin <hyperair@ubuntu.com> wrote:

>
> > * Our ARM team says that the current versions still work rather
> > poorly on ARM.
>
> I saw one bug about that, also mentioned in my previous post, which
> is being worked on, but that's about it. What other issues are there?
>
well, its been general issues with the mono stack in the past (way
before we shipped banshee at all) that made it hard to support mono
apps on arm. alongside this the ubuntu arm port is to my knowledge the
only arm distro port to date that focuses on armv7 only with all the
possible optimizations this arch offers (modulo hard float which we
will likely switch to with precise).

every release since we switched away from the greatest common
denominator subarch (armv4t) that debian defaults to we had massive
issues with mono, starting with the fact that boehm GC is used by
default which makes all mono packages uninstallable in a qemu chrooted
environment (which many people use issue-free for all other desktop
packages for cross development).

with the support for the cortex-a9 cpu line we got SMP support in the
arm land, banshee was the only mono app not working and it ate several
manweeks to nail it down to the below comment in the code (and indeed
the missing code bits):

/* SMP on ARM is very similar to XCHG on x86. Doesn't lock the
* bus because there are no SMP ARM machines. If/when there are,
* this code will likely need to be updated. */

in the current release LP. bug #857299 caused banshee to hang hard after
drawing the UI on arm, this was nailed down to upstream bug #661112
(which is still in critical and NEW state despite there existing a
patch since a while), but sadly to late before release that we could do
much more about it but switch the arm images back to RB.

the ubuntu-arm team is 4 developers and one QA person caring for the
various images, the archive port, build failures, arm-server and more,
losing one or two persons for a week or two massively hurts us ... for
the last two releases exactly this was sadly the case though. if
upstream would be able to care more for arm (and especially for some
recent arm arches instead of nailing arm ports to something timely
equivalent to the 486DX/SX era) this would surely help a lot.

it is not that we dont like banshee in the arm team it is just that for
the cycles where we started shipping it (or had to review it for
possible shipment) it was the one app causing the most pain for us.

with the switch to hardfloat i would expect us to hit issues again in
precise so i was actually pleased to hear there was a discussion about
switching back to RB, even though i use banshee and personally like it
on my x86 laptop.

ciao
oli
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Old 11-08-2011, 04:51 PM
Chow Loong Jin
 
Default Default Music Player in Ubuntu 12.04

On 08/11/2011 23:45, Sebastien Bacher wrote:
> [...]
> I've talked about several people in different Ubuntu teams and some users about
> banshee at UDS, things which came often about the oneiric version:
> - it hangs often
> - it claims to handle videos but the video supports is not working well and that
> reflects on the product, we should rather turn it off by default if we can
> - it's buggy
>
> Reading some of the comments and replies on the lists some of the issues are due
> to external factors (i.e U1, gconf, etc), that's not really a justification for
> shipping a buggy product though. The complain there is not against upstream but
> as a distribution we should make sure that things we ship are working, saying
> "banshee is not working but it's not a banshee issue, it's gconf buggy" isn't
> satisfactory, we should have red flags raised before release and get such issues
> tracked.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly.

> Those quality issues are not specific and different Ubuntu team are making steps
> this cycle to assure we address those quality problems for the LTS, I would be
> interested if anyone from the banshee maintainers have plan or interest to work
> in that direction as well and to make sure that banshee doesn't get broken by
> its own bugs, u1, gconf or whatever other things it might use?

I'm interested. I guess there needs to be more communication between the
maintainers of each stack, be it u1, gconf, or something else. And perhaps more
willingness on my part to slap on short-term downstream workaround patches while
the actual issue is being fixed. I think that an approach like that could have
greatly helped with the gconf bug, especially. Some bugs may be hard to track
down, and may take a bit more time, like the one with u1ms, but Rodney was
working on that, and has gotten it fixed in 2.2.1 (which is incidentally now
waiting in the -proposed queue).

> Is there any way
> we could measure start speed, resources usage, stability etc and aim at higher
> quality for the media player?

Banshee has an opt-in anonymous feedback thing going on upstream. I'm not sure
exactly what information it captures, but I'm inclined to think it can be
amended to capture start speed pretty trivially. Resource usage, probably not so
trivial, I think. An upstream Banshee developer would probably be in a better
position to answer this.

Stability.. well how would you measure something like that? Uptime? The results
could be pretty biased based on whether or not the user restarts his/her computer.

The Banshee apport script could use some improvements as well. I believe it
currently doesn't attach enough information to apport-generated bug reports.
It's on my todo list, but I have not actually gotten around to fixing it.

Much of this applies not just to Banshee, but to all graphical applications
we're going to be supporting in the default install. Gwibber is a fine example
of poor startup time, for instance. Perhaps we need a better testing
infrastructure that does all of this. Maybe a separate opt-in package that sends
appropriate data back? That way we would have solid statistics rather than vague
subjective accounts like "takes a lifetime to start."

Another thing that would be nice is to have people (especially developers)
actually report bugs they were facing, rather than discovering a quick
workaround and being satisfied with that outcome. This was seen in Martin's post
earlier, but I'll admit to being guilty of this as well, and I'm sure the same
applies to many of us.

> [...]
> will the new version still use gconf or gsettings? what is the state of
> gsettings in mono?

gconf, unfortunately. As far as I can tell, there aren't any gsettings bindings
for mono just yet.


P.S. One thing I've found particularly annoying when working on Banshee bugs is
the lack of a comment-crossposting-bridge thing between GNOME Bugzilla and
Launchpad. As a result, I have had to relay (manually) all the requests for
information from upstream, and back.

I recall seeing something of that sort for Freedesktop's Bugzilla sometime back,
so why isn't it implemented for GNOME's?

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Old 11-08-2011, 05:42 PM
Bryce Harrington
 
Default Default Music Player in Ubuntu 12.04

On Wed, Nov 09, 2011 at 01:51:26AM +0800, Chow Loong Jin wrote:
> P.S. One thing I've found particularly annoying when working on Banshee bugs is
> the lack of a comment-crossposting-bridge thing between GNOME Bugzilla and
> Launchpad. As a result, I have had to relay (manually) all the requests for
> information from upstream, and back.

What I usually do is request the reporter subscribe to the upstream bug
report and follow up on requests. It doesn't really make sense for any
of us to spend our time as cut-and-paste monkeys!

If the user never replies to request for info, after a month or so I
intervene and try to re-establish contact or find someone else to do the
testing; if that doesn't work, I assume the issue wasn't that pressing
after all and close out the bug.

> I recall seeing something of that sort for Freedesktop's Bugzilla sometime back,
> so why isn't it implemented for GNOME's?

Right, the Freedesktop bugzilla has the linkage, although I think it's
broken at the moment (I've not seen comments coming in through on my
upstreamed bugs for a while).

I understand that setting up each of these comment importers requires
some coordination between the Launchpad engineers and the maintainers of
the upstream bugzilla; there's a plugin that has to be added and enabled
on their end (which is why LP doesn't import comments across the board
on all bugzillas). Also, particularly with larger bugzilla instances,
there can be integration issues and so on to iron out.

The launchpad guys say that GNOME had been on the todo list but they
didn't get it completed, and offhand didn't remember what the specific
blocker was in getting it set up. If it is important let me know and I
can escalate it for the LP maintenance team to investigate further.

Bryce


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Old 11-08-2011, 06:07 PM
Dean Henrichsmeyer
 
Default Default Music Player in Ubuntu 12.04

On 11/07/2011 10:49 PM, Christopher James Halse Rogers wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-11-08 at 09:17 +1030, Jason Warner wrote:
>> Hi All -
>>
>> During the recent Ubuntu Developer Summit we discussed moving from Banshee back to Rhythmbox as the default music player for Ubuntu 12.04. No definitive decision has been taken yet (major default apps tend to have many integration points and broader discussions are needed before we can make that decision, such as the Thunderbird decision in Oneiric) as we need to kick off the further discussion.
>>
>> It was an interesting discussion overall and I wanted to reach out to the broader Ubuntu community to get further feedback. So, feel free to reply with your thoughts in this thread.
>>
>> For context, here are some of the discussion points.
>>
>> Areas of concern in Banshee were stability, start-up time, the overall resource intensive nature of the application and how responsive an upstream they were to Ubuntu specific needs. It was noted that Banshee is by far the better UI, but many people experienced significant issues in stability thus making it feel less usable.
>
> I was not aware of general stability problems - of course, it works just
> fine for me .

I'm relatively new, so I can't speak to any of the areas of concern
other than stability. For a music player, I can deal with a
less-than-perfect UI for a robust and stable player. In my experience,
Banshee isn't stable. The UI is nice and polished and the integration
with Ubuntu is well done but it randomly crashes while idle and also the
backend becomes unresponsive. You can click around the UI but it won't
actually play anything.

I have no preference for another application. I used Banshee because it
was the default in Ubuntu. I can just +1 the stability concerns.

-Dean



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Old 11-08-2011, 09:45 PM
Christopher James Halse Rogers
 
Default Default Music Player in Ubuntu 12.04

On Tue, 2011-11-08 at 15:49 +1100, Christopher James Halse Rogers wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-11-08 at 09:17 +1030, Jason Warner wrote:
> > Hi All -
> >
> > During the recent Ubuntu Developer Summit we discussed moving from Banshee back to Rhythmbox as the default music player for Ubuntu 12.04. No definitive decision has been taken yet (major default apps tend to have many integration points and broader discussions are needed before we can make that decision, such as the Thunderbird decision in Oneiric) as we need to kick off the further discussion.
> >
> > It was an interesting discussion overall and I wanted to reach out to the broader Ubuntu community to get further feedback. So, feel free to reply with your thoughts in this thread.
> >
> > For context, here are some of the discussion points.
> >
> > Areas of concern in Banshee were stability, start-up time, the overall resource intensive nature of the application and how responsive an upstream they were to Ubuntu specific needs. It was noted that Banshee is by far the better UI, but many people experienced significant issues in stability thus making it feel less usable.
>
> I was not aware of general stability problems - of course, it works just
> fine for me .
>
> Last time I benchmarked Banshee startup time, about 2.5 seconds were
> spent JITing. This was on my Core 2 Duo - netbooks and ARM should see
> an even bigger JIT time. It seems we could largely eliminate this by
> building AOT modules for the class libraries. This shouldn't be hard to
> do - we could either do this ad-hoc, or extend the mono debhelper tools
> to do this at package install time. It's highly likely to work, as the
> MonoTouch framework that Xamarin sells requires AOT to work - iOS
> doesn't allow runtime code generation.

Somehow I've managed to forget how to get detailed JIT profiling data
out of mono, so my numbers are imprecise, but on my x200s a quick check
suggests that AOTing the class libraries roughly halves Banshee's
startup time with a warm cache and roughly doesn't change the cold-cache
startup time.
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Old 11-09-2011, 02:08 PM
Dean Henrichsmeyer
 
Default Default Music Player in Ubuntu 12.04

On 11/08/2011 09:09 AM, olivier dufour wrote:
> - Stability: Imo, RB is more stable but banshee has more features which
> bring bugs as always. We are working very hard to fix as many bugs as we
> can to be more stable.If you take a look to release, you will see that a
> lot of bugs are closed foreach cycle. And some bugs come from outside
> (gstreamer, GCONF,...)
> - Banshee team is very reactive and add a lot of new features with each
> cycle. For example in last cycle we add Genre/Year filter and DVD
> support which was both waited by a lot of user.

Most users favor stability and efficiency over features. In an LTS
release of Ubuntu, stability and efficiency have an even greater weight.
When weighing alternative default applications, it will be very hard to
use "a lot of new features" as an argument.

-Dean



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Old 11-09-2011, 08:38 PM
Jani Monoses
 
Default Default Music Player in Ubuntu 12.04

Hi,


- issue with ARM arch: I do not understand that point because Xamarin
business model is based on mobile and work with ARM and we have no bug
open for that. I know that some people used it and do not encounter any
issues.


These points likely explain why we had issues while others did not:

* We are using a different toolchain than other distros (Linaro-GCC with
many optimizations and possibly regressions).


* Debian had not seen the bugs because they built Mono for ARMv5 not ARMv7.

* Android and iOS: While the main bugs may be in Mono, if they only
manifest in Banshee or worse in Banshee+SMP for some reason than Android
and iOS testing is unlikely to have hit them.


* Mono upstream ARM auto-testboxes were running Ubuntu were 9.04 IIRC
which still targeted ARMv5 and they had obviously not encountered our
issues. Had they used a more recent one, it is likely that the bugs
would have been investigated by them too.


* At least for 11.04 we were 2 stable releases behind upstream, which
had tons of SMP issues fixed, because the Debian/Ubuntu/Mono packaging

and stabilization of 2.10 only landed after 11.04

Debugging Mono apps requires good knowledge of the Mono runtime and
APIs, so our C/C++/gdb experience is not necessarily translatable
without considerable effort. While Mono undoubtedly offers productivity
gains at development time, parts of it are paid back when debugging,
given that most developers are not familiar with it.(This is true to a
certain degree for all other non C/python/GObject projects too, but I
think it is the most visible for Mono among all the desktop building
technologies shipped on a modern desktop)


So just as the other ARM team members before I can confirm that Mono via
Banshee was the toughest package to debug and try keep working in the
past to cycles. For 11.10 we failed, not having caught the showstopper
bug early enough.


Jani


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Old 11-18-2011, 01:17 AM
Jason Warner
 
Default Default Music Player in Ubuntu 12.04

Hi All -*
Thanks for all the feedback on default music player. We have to nail this down soon so if have any further feedback for the list, please send it now. I want to take a final decision for Precise by Monday, November 21st.*


Thanks everyone,* * *Jason

On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 9:17 AM, Jason Warner <jason.warner@canonical.com> wrote:


Hi All -

During the recent Ubuntu Developer Summit we discussed moving from Banshee back to Rhythmbox as the default music player for Ubuntu 12.04. No definitive decision has been taken yet (major default apps tend to have many integration points and broader discussions are needed before we can make that decision, such as the Thunderbird decision in Oneiric) as we need to kick off the further discussion.

It was an interesting discussion overall and I wanted to reach out to the broader Ubuntu community to get further feedback. So, feel free to reply with your thoughts in this thread.

For context, here are some of the discussion points.

Areas of concern in Banshee were stability, start-up time, the overall resource intensive nature of the application and how responsive an upstream they were to Ubuntu specific needs. It was noted that Banshee is by far the better UI, but many people experienced significant issues in stability thus making it feel less usable.

Areas of concern in Rhythmbox were U1 music integration, usability and how active an upstream they were. Most people in attendance felt that Rhymbox "just worked" but needed quite a bit of UI/usability work to make it a great default application choice.

I would like to welcome further feedback on the proposal to move back to Rhythmbox here. Thanks in advance for your input.

Jason


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Old 11-21-2011, 05:44 AM
Jason Warner
 
Default Default Music Player in Ubuntu 12.04

Hi Everyone -
Thank you all for sending feedback[1][2][3] on the default music player for 12.04. It is clear the right decision for 12.04 is to make Rhythmbox the default music player. Thank you, above all else, for keeping the conversation cordial and making the decision about what is best for Ubuntu.*


Cheers,* Jason
[1] -*http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/11/banshee-tomboy-and-mono-dropped-from-ubuntu-12-04-cd/

[2] -*http://news.softpedia.com/news/Do-You-Want-Rhythmbox-or-Banshee-in-Ubuntu-12-04-233449.shtml

[3] -*https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2011-November/003393.html*(this thread)




On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Jason Warner <jason.warner@canonical.com> wrote:


Hi All -*
Thanks for all the feedback on default music player. We have to nail this down soon so if have any further feedback for the list, please send it now. I want to take a final decision for Precise by Monday, November 21st.*



Thanks everyone,* * *Jason

On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 9:17 AM, Jason Warner <jason.warner@canonical.com> wrote:



Hi All -

During the recent Ubuntu Developer Summit we discussed moving from Banshee back to Rhythmbox as the default music player for Ubuntu 12.04. No definitive decision has been taken yet (major default apps tend to have many integration points and broader discussions are needed before we can make that decision, such as the Thunderbird decision in Oneiric) as we need to kick off the further discussion.

It was an interesting discussion overall and I wanted to reach out to the broader Ubuntu community to get further feedback. So, feel free to reply with your thoughts in this thread.

For context, here are some of the discussion points.

Areas of concern in Banshee were stability, start-up time, the overall resource intensive nature of the application and how responsive an upstream they were to Ubuntu specific needs. It was noted that Banshee is by far the better UI, but many people experienced significant issues in stability thus making it feel less usable.

Areas of concern in Rhythmbox were U1 music integration, usability and how active an upstream they were. Most people in attendance felt that Rhymbox "just worked" but needed quite a bit of UI/usability work to make it a great default application choice.

I would like to welcome further feedback on the proposal to move back to Rhythmbox here. Thanks in advance for your input.

Jason




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Old 11-21-2011, 07:59 AM
Chow Loong Jin
 
Default Default Music Player in Ubuntu 12.04

On 21/11/2011 14:44, Jason Warner wrote:
> Hi Everyone -
>
> Thank you all for sending feedback[1][2][3] on the default music player for
> 12.04. It is clear the right decision for 12.04 is to make Rhythmbox the default
> music player. Thank you, above all else, for keeping the conversation cordial
> and making the decision about what is best for Ubuntu.
>
> Cheers,
> Jason
>
> [1]
> - http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/11/banshee-tomboy-and-mono-dropped-from-ubuntu-12-04-cd/
> [2]
> - http://news.softpedia.com/news/Do-You-Want-Rhythmbox-or-Banshee-in-Ubuntu-12-04-233449.shtml
> [3]
> - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2011-November/003393.html (this
> thread)

Sorry, but I'm still not very clear on the basis of this decision. Could you
clarify this please?

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