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Old 10-19-2011, 06:24 AM
Didier Roche
 
Default Deeper Zeitgeist integration. Installation of datasources for default applications etc

Le 15/10/2011 20:39, Manish Sinha a écrit :

Hello,


Hey Manish,


Right now Ubuntu and esp Unity depends on zeitgeist for searches,
recommendations etc.

Right now only those events are logged by zeitgeist-datahub. It
cannot log each and every user event. To increase the logging, there
exists datasources which are plugins/addins for applications. For
default applications datasources exists for tomboy, gedit, banshee,
totem, firefox, empathy (telepathy) and eog. These datasources
should also be shipped with Ubuntu.

Datasources for thunderbird is in development. Datasources for
transmission and shotwell don't exist. It needs to be done.


Yeah, this seem a right goal, it's part of things I tracked, but wasn't
considered a priority last cycle with all the other changes coming. Now,
it's maybe time to integrate them.


Now some questions:
- do you have automatic testsuite for them, running on different
versions of upstream projects?
- how do oyu work with firefox in particular, where we update the
released version through release life? We generally avoid shipping
plugins for this reason.
- can you elaborate on one of the major flaw of zeitgeist which seems a
bigger priority to me: when you plug an usb key, or have a
windows/ubuntu partition, as zeitgeist isn't a indexer, we can't see
them in the file lens in particularly. I know that Seif has a script for
that, but it doesn't seem to be suited for indexing and Mikkel has some
concerns about it. Can we put that on the table as one of the priority
for Precise?



My proposal does not start and end with datasources. We should
also include activity-log-manager in the default install. This
application is a privacy and history manager. You can blacklist
applications, set zeitgeist in incognito mode, erase history etc.

We discussed that this cycle already, and I think that it should really
be integrated in gnome-control-center rather than having another
capplet. Do you think it's possible?



In case you don't know who am I. I work mostly on datasources
for zeitgeist. Any more clarifications are invited



Excellent! I think that if those 4 items are addressed, datasources is
definitively something which will be great and real in Precise!

Thanks for your proposal,

Didier

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Old 10-19-2011, 09:11 AM
Manish Sinha
 
Default Deeper Zeitgeist integration. Installation of datasources for default applications etc

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 11:54 AM, Didier Roche <didrocks@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> Yeah, this seem a right goal, it's part of things I tracked, but wasn't
> considered a priority last cycle with all the other changes coming. Now,
> it's maybe time to integrate them.

Sounds good.

> Now some questions:
> - do you have automatic testsuite for them, running on different versions of
> upstream projects?

Not right now, but I can create them. I can create them for atleast those
apps which are default in Ubuntu

> - how do oyu work with firefox in particular, where we update the released
> version through release life? We generally avoid shipping plugins for this
> reason.

Our old version of firefox datasource was using XUL/binary components. After
the horror, of it breaking every cycle, Mark Tully ported it to js-ctypes.
js-ctypes was introduced in Firefox 4.0. So, an upgrade won't break it.
https://developer.mozilla.org/en/js-ctypes
http://starkravingfinkle.org/blog/2007/09/hello-js-ctypes-goodbye-binary-components/

Mark Tully also has also created an internet/web lens which can use
the events of
firefox and thunderbird.

> - can you elaborate on one of the major flaw of zeitgeist which seems a
> bigger priority to me: when you plug an usb key, or have a windows/ubuntu
> partition, as zeitgeist isn't a indexer, we can't see them in the file lens
> in particularly. I know that Seif has a script for that, but it doesn't seem
> to be suited for indexing and Mikkel has some concerns about it. Can we put
> that on the table as one of the priority for Precise?

Yes, that script is present in activity-log-manager (the version is
not released).
I was working on it and found that the current version was pretty
slow. Probably
some tricks can be undertaken to make it index only upto a specific depth.

The other option can be that file-lens can use a hybrid of zeitgeist for usage,
relevancy and all usage based recommendation and hook to "locate" unix
tool for searching. Correct me, if I am wrong, but locate does keep indexing
files? Right?

>
>> My proposal does not start and end with datasources. We should
>> also include activity-log-manager in the default install. This
>> application is a privacy and history manager. You can blacklist
>> applications, set zeitgeist in incognito mode, erase history etc.
>>
> We discussed that this cycle already, and I think that it should really be
> integrated in gnome-control-center rather than having another capplet. Do
> you think it's possible?

Yes. It is possible. I never worked on gnome-control-center, but it is
possible.
The first release was created in hurry to check how much options we can
provide to the user.
The current codebase of activity-log-manager is in python. Does
gnome-control-center have it's components/plugs (or whatever they call it)
written in python?

-
Manish

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Old 10-19-2011, 09:40 AM
Didier Roche
 
Default Deeper Zeitgeist integration. Installation of datasources for default applications etc

Le 19/10/2011 11:11, Manish Sinha a écrit :

Now some questions:
- do you have automatic testsuite for them, running on different versions of
upstream projects?

Not right now, but I can create them. I can create them for atleast those
apps which are default in Ubuntu


Yeah, as we try to increase Quality as an ongoing effort and especially
for LTS, this will be a nice way to demonstrate zeitgeist leading that
as well



- how do oyu work with firefox in particular, where we update the released
version through release life? We generally avoid shipping plugins for this
reason.

Our old version of firefox datasource was using XUL/binary components. After
the horror, of it breaking every cycle, Mark Tully ported it to js-ctypes.
js-ctypes was introduced in Firefox 4.0. So, an upgrade won't break it.
https://developer.mozilla.org/en/js-ctypes
http://starkravingfinkle.org/blog/2007/09/hello-js-ctypes-goodbye-binary-components/

Mark Tully also has also created an internet/web lens which can use
the events of
firefox and thunderbird.


Sounds good to me!




- can you elaborate on one of the major flaw of zeitgeist which seems a
bigger priority to me: when you plug an usb key, or have a windows/ubuntu
partition, as zeitgeist isn't a indexer, we can't see them in the file lens
in particularly. I know that Seif has a script for that, but it doesn't seem
to be suited for indexing and Mikkel has some concerns about it. Can we put
that on the table as one of the priority for Precise?

Yes, that script is present in activity-log-manager (the version is
not released).
I was working on it and found that the current version was pretty
slow. Probably
some tricks can be undertaken to make it index only upto a specific depth.

The other option can be that file-lens can use a hybrid of zeitgeist for usage,
relevancy and all usage based recommendation and hook to "locate" unix
tool for searching. Correct me, if I am wrong, but locate does keep indexing
files? Right?


Right, we run updatedb (with the relevant ionice value) every day from
/etc/cron.daily/mlocate.

Maybe zeitgeist can see if it has enough info from it?


My proposal does not start and end with datasources. We should
also include activity-log-manager in the default install. This
application is a privacy and history manager. You can blacklist
applications, set zeitgeist in incognito mode, erase history etc.


We discussed that this cycle already, and I think that it should really be
integrated in gnome-control-center rather than having another capplet. Do
you think it's possible?

Yes. It is possible. I never worked on gnome-control-center, but it is
possible.
The first release was created in hurry to check how much options we can
provide to the user.
The current codebase of activity-log-manager is in python. Does
gnome-control-center have it's components/plugs (or whatever they call it)
written in python?
I'm afraid it doesn't enable this yet, but maybe some xembeed can be a
first step? I think rodrigo will have some inputs in this.


Are you attending UDS? if so, are you wanting to lead a session there or
are you enable to attend remotely?


Didier

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Old 10-19-2011, 10:02 AM
Manish Sinha
 
Default Deeper Zeitgeist integration. Installation of datasources for default applications etc

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 3:10 PM, Didier Roche <didrocks@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> Right, we run updatedb (with the relevant ionice value) every day from
> /etc/cron.daily/mlocate.
> Maybe zeitgeist can see if it has enough info from it?

Yeah. I guess Idle ionice value would be nice. Anyway, I am not an expert with
these cron and scheduling.

Yeah. I guess we can have a look. I agree with you about indexing by
crawling the disk or using inotify. I keep hearing bad news from such
application
esp apple spotlight and even strigi. Never faced a problem myself, but doesn't
mean others cant face it.

> I'm afraid it doesn't enable this yet, but maybe some xembeed can be a first
> step? I think rodrigo will have some inputs in this.

Okay. I will try to do some research on it. Waiting for rorigo's reply.

> Are you attending UDS? if so, are you wanting to lead a session there or are
> you enable to attend remotely?

No. I am not attending UDS. Was waitlisted last time and cannot attend
this time
and next April due to personal reasons.

I am not sure but I think either Mikkel Kamstrup (kamstrup) or Michal
Hruby (mhr3)
or both would be at UDS. They can lead the session.

I can attend remotely, but can't be very sure. The place where I live,
internet is not so
reliable. 2 or 4Mbps is considered a rich man's internet connection.

-
Manish

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Old 10-19-2011, 12:11 PM
Jo-Erlend Schinstad
 
Default Deeper Zeitgeist integration. Installation of datasources for default applications etc

Den 19. okt. 2011 08:24, skrev Didier Roche:

[snip]

Now some questions:
- do you have automatic testsuite for them, running on different
versions of upstream projects?
- how do oyu work with firefox in particular, where we update the
released version through release life? We generally avoid shipping
plugins for this reason.
- can you elaborate on one of the major flaw of zeitgeist which seems
a bigger priority to me: when you plug an usb key, or have a
windows/ubuntu partition, as zeitgeist isn't a indexer, we can't see
them in the file lens in particularly. I know that Seif has a script
for that, but it doesn't seem to be suited for indexing and Mikkel has
some concerns about it. Can we put that on the table as one of the
priority for Precise?


I don't think this is simply a technical issue. It's first and foremost
a design issue. When I have opened a file, then you can know that the
file is of some interest to me. The fact that I haven't open a file,
doesn't prove that it isn't interesting, but you just can't know. I
regard Zeitgeist is a logger that enables applications to learn from my
actions, not as a general indexer like Tracker. In order for the dash
and lenses to be effective, I think it should primarily display files
I've shown some interest in. Similarly, the web lens should only display
sites I've actually visited, not intermingle results from Google, since
I haven't shown any interested in all those other sites.


Searching for the unknown is completely different from searching your
personal history. The thing I like most about the current way the lenses
work, is that no results are ever entirely irrelevant, since at some
point, I've chosen to use them all. I'm very concerned that mixing these
types of searches will introduce many false positives, which will reduce
the user experience. Searching for things you've never used is obviously
quite useful, and an interesting field that should be treated as a
separate topic. Because of its nature, you'll want the ability to define
a lot of parameters for such a search, and I'm not convinced that lenses
are ready for that. These are some of the parameters that the lens would
have to have in order to provide a good search for unused things:


* Name (duh)
* Time created (from and to)
* Time modified (from and to)
* Specific folder(s)
* How deep to search
* Specific servers (nfs, samba, ftp, etc)
* Size (to and from)
* User or group the file belongs to
* File type
* Whether or not to search file files content
* Source (did you download it from the web, received it in email,
bit torrent, etc)


These are only the parameters that immediately comes to mind. I'm sure
there are many more. But already, this has become a fairly long list,
and it's likely that you'd want the ability to store that search. From
my perspective, it seems that forcing these types of searches into the
dash will both reduce the quality of results from my log, and reduce the
ability to search for things I've never used. For that reason, I would
recommend that the dash be used only to search for things that are known
to be interesting because it's been used, and that a more powerful
desktop search engine be developed separately. Obviously, this
application would be able to use the same data sources that are used in
the dash, but would provide much greater level of detail. Then the dash
could use stored searches from that app as a source, because then you
have defined an interest, so it's no longer random data, and the results
will still be relevant.


Does it make sense to you?

Jo-Erlend Schinstad








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Old 10-19-2011, 01:16 PM
Manish Sinha
 
Default Deeper Zeitgeist integration. Installation of datasources for default applications etc

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 5:41 PM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad
<joerlend.schinstad@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't think this is simply a technical issue. It's first and foremost a
> design issue. When I have opened a file, then you can know that the file is
> of some interest to me. The fact that I haven't open a file, doesn't prove
> that it isn't interesting, but you just can't know. I regard Zeitgeist is a
> logger that enables applications to learn from my actions, not as a general
> indexer like Tracker. In order for the dash and lenses to be effective, I
> think it should primarily display files I've shown some interest in.
> Similarly, the web lens should only display sites I've actually visited, not
> intermingle results from Google, since I haven't shown any interested in all
> those other sites.

I was suggesting that when you search for files, then the results from
Zeitgeist would be retrieved and shown first as you have actively opened them
at some point. The more times you open it, it's importance should increase and
the dash should be able to take care of this fact.

Files which have never been opened arn't rated on relevancy scale.
They are just
kind of files which show up because the user wants files which match this name.

-
Manish

> Searching for the unknown is completely different from searching your
> personal history. The thing I like most about the current way the lenses
> work, is that no results are ever entirely irrelevant, since at some point,
> I've chosen to use them all. I'm very concerned that mixing these types of
> searches will introduce many false positives, which will reduce the user
> experience. Searching for things you've never used is obviously quite
> useful, and an interesting field that should be treated as a separate topic.
> Because of its nature, you'll want the ability to define a lot of parameters
> for such a search, and I'm not convinced that lenses are ready for that.
> These are some of the parameters that the lens would have to have in order
> to provide a good search for unused things:
>
> * ** *Name (duh)
> * ** *Time created (from and to)
> * ** *Time modified (from and to)
> * ** *Specific folder(s)
> * ** *How deep to search
> * ** *Specific servers (nfs, samba, ftp, etc)
> * ** *Size (to and from)
> * ** *User or group the file belongs to
> * ** *File type
> * ** *Whether or not to search file files content
> * ** *Source (did you download it from the web, received it in email, bit
> torrent, etc)
>
> These are only the parameters that immediately comes to mind. I'm sure there
> are many more. But already, this has become a fairly long list, and it's
> likely that you'd want the ability to store that search. From my
> perspective, it seems that forcing these types of searches into the dash
> will both reduce the quality of results from my log, and reduce the ability
> to search for things I've never used. For that reason, I would recommend
> that the dash be used only to search for things that are known to be
> interesting because it's been used, and that a more powerful desktop search
> engine be developed separately. Obviously, this application would be able to
> use the same data sources that are used in the dash, but would provide much
> greater level of detail. Then the dash could use stored searches from that
> app as a source, because then you have defined an interest, so it's no
> longer random data, and the results will still be relevant.
>
> Does it make sense to you?
>
> Jo-Erlend Schinstad
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> ubuntu-desktop mailing list
> ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
>

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Old 10-19-2011, 03:20 PM
Didier Roche
 
Default Deeper Zeitgeist integration. Installation of datasources for default applications etc

Le 19/10/2011 15:16, Manish Sinha a écrit :

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 5:41 PM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad
<joerlend.schinstad@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't think this is simply a technical issue. It's first and foremost a
design issue. When I have opened a file, then you can know that the file is
of some interest to me. The fact that I haven't open a file, doesn't prove
that it isn't interesting, but you just can't know. I regard Zeitgeist is a
logger that enables applications to learn from my actions, not as a general
indexer like Tracker. In order for the dash and lenses to be effective, I
think it should primarily display files I've shown some interest in.
Similarly, the web lens should only display sites I've actually visited, not
intermingle results from Google, since I haven't shown any interested in all
those other sites.

I was suggesting that when you search for files, then the results from
Zeitgeist would be retrieved and shown first as you have actively opened them
at some point. The more times you open it, it's importance should increase and
the dash should be able to take care of this fact.

Files which have never been opened arn't rated on relevancy scale.
They are just
kind of files which show up because the user wants files which match this name.


Totally agree with that vision, that's how the revelancy of the query
should be IMHO.


I think that ignoring non opened filed on the system (or rather, not
known opened file, because you maybe opened a file on your usb key at
some point?) suggested as a solution for revelancy isn't right. For
instance, you can argue that zeitgeist should then forget about files
that I didn't open in the last 3 years? Why this file should then show
and not the one I created on a windows double boot, or just before
installing ubuntu (which can be only few weeks ago)? I guess that still
having the data is interesting, but of course, it will be shown way
after more relevant (and recently opened) ones.


Didier

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Old 10-19-2011, 05:24 PM
Manish Sinha
 
Default Deeper Zeitgeist integration. Installation of datasources for default applications etc

On Wednesday 19 October 2011 08:50 PM, Didier Roche wrote:

I think that ignoring non opened filed on the system (or rather, not
known opened file, because you maybe opened a file on your usb key at
some point?) suggested as a solution for revelancy isn't right. For
instance, you can argue that zeitgeist should then forget about files
that I didn't open in the last 3 years? Why this file should then show
and not the one I created on a windows double boot, or just before
installing ubuntu (which can be only few weeks ago)? I guess that still
having the data is interesting, but of course, it will be shown way
after more relevant (and recently opened) ones.


I think this represents the boundary of zeitgeist and file lens.

Zeitgeist can only log events which it has been notified of.
File lens has to aggregate files from zeitgeist or any other scope if
it wants to. Files logged 3 years back will also be shown, it just
depends on how you are querying for the events. The method to
fetch events allows to sort the results.

As far as files on ntfs partitions or usb partitions are concerned,
I think it has something to do with datahub as that is the daemon
which notified the zeitgeist daemon.

-
Manish

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