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Old 07-06-2011, 07:49 PM
Matthew Paul Thomas
 
Default "Let's discuss this at the next UDS"

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Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote on 06/07/11 07:05:
>...
> In addition to that, the fact that this discussion started is a good
> reason IMO to consider the matter further during UDS-P. In a thread
> like this, people tend to forget that there is more into handling
> languages than picking a locale; see my reply to Martin's message.
>...

A 50-minute face-to-face UDS discussion has its benefits, but waiting
111 days to consider the matter further is far too high a price to pay.

If we need a collaborative document to discuss possible solutions, and
record the issues that people tend to forget, then let's set up one on
pad.ubuntu.com.

If we need a conference call to discuss the problem out loud, then let's
find a Mumble server or similar to do that.

If we need to sketch designs together, let's get on Cosketch, Skrbl,
Twiddla, or similar to do that.

Let's do something extraordinary: solving a complicated issue in the
design of Ubuntu *without* waiting for a UDS. (Then, let's make that
ordinary.)

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Old 07-06-2011, 09:21 PM
Gunnar Hjalmarsson
 
Default "Let's discuss this at the next UDS"

On 2011-07-06 21:49, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote on 06/07/11 07:05:
>> In addition to that, the fact that this discussion started is a good
>> reason IMO to consider the matter further during UDS-P. In a thread
>> like this, people tend to forget that there is more into handling
>> languages than picking a locale; see my reply to Martin's message.
>
> A 50-minute face-to-face UDS discussion has its benefits, but waiting
> 111 days to consider the matter further is far too high a price to pay.

Hmm.. My first reaction to that comment was: How many years has GNOME,
and with that Ubuntu, provided a language chooser on the login screen?
How on earth can this topic suddenly have become so urgent that its
solution can't wait another development cycle?

But I agree that a 50 minutes session has its limitations. My thought
with suggesting UDS was that it would give us time to do careful
preparations. I suppose that those preparations would in effect be much
more important than the actual session.

Since you focus on collaborative documents etc., I think we share the
same idea about what it takes to tackle the topic in a proper manner.

Can't help worrying a little about the time constraints, though. I spent
quite some time during the Natty development cycle to help fix a bunch
of bugs about language and locale issues. I'd hate to see Oneiric be
shipped with similar bugs as those that were recently resolved because
the work is rushed unnecessarily.

Maybe my concerns are related to the fact that I'm a newbie here, with
very little experience of the kind of collaboration you outline. I look
forward to it, though.

--
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https://launchpad.net/~gunnarhj

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Old 07-06-2011, 10:03 PM
Matthew Paul Thomas
 
Default "Let's discuss this at the next UDS"

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Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote on 06/07/11 22:21:
>
> On 2011-07-06 21:49, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
>>
>> Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote on 06/07/11 07:05:
>>>
>>> In addition to that, the fact that this discussion started is a good
>>> reason IMO to consider the matter further during UDS-P. In a thread
>>> like this, people tend to forget that there is more into handling
>>> languages than picking a locale; see my reply to Martin's message.
>>
>> A 50-minute face-to-face UDS discussion has its benefits, but waiting
>> 111 days to consider the matter further is far too high a price to
>> pay.
>
> Hmm.. My first reaction to that comment was: How many years has GNOME,
> and with that Ubuntu, provided a language chooser on the login screen?
> How on earth can this topic suddenly have become so urgent that its
> solution can't wait another development cycle?

The specific answer here is, the login screen is being reimplemented
now. If we can solve the problems that the GDM language chooser was
intended for in a better way, now is a better time than most to do that.

But I think the general answer is, no topic should "wait another
development cycle" for discussion, if people can work on it now. You
just happened to provide a particularly juicy example. :-)

> But I agree that a 50 minutes session has its limitations. My thought
> with suggesting UDS was that it would give us time to do careful
> preparations. I suppose that those preparations would in effect be
> much more important than the actual session.

Many Ubuntu developers have tasks related to the final release. The
period between final release and the following UDS is typically two to
three weeks. And problems often do not require two to three weeks of
preparation plus 50 minutes in-person discussion. They may require much
less, or much more, or less of one and more of the other.

> Since you focus on collaborative documents etc., I think we share the
> same idea about what it takes to tackle the topic in a proper manner.

Great!

> Can't help worrying a little about the time constraints, though. I
> spent quite some time during the Natty development cycle to help fix a
> bunch of bugs about language and locale issues. I'd hate to see
> Oneiric be shipped with similar bugs as those that were recently
> resolved because the work is rushed unnecessarily.
>...

Fair enough, and thanks for working on those bugs. Do test cases exist
for checking that your hard work does not regress? If not, perhaps you
could add some to the test case wiki. <http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/>

Maybe your concern is more at a higher level, about the ability to
achieve particular goals (for example, "Set up a user account with a
particular initial language"). If so, perhaps we could have a document
describing the use cases, how Ubuntu's current design satisfies them (or
not), and how it could be improved.

Cheers
- --
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Old 07-09-2011, 09:26 AM
Gunnar Hjalmarsson
 
Default "Let's discuss this at the next UDS"

On 2011-07-07 00:03, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote on 06/07/11 22:21:
>> Since you focus on collaborative documents etc., I think we share the
>> same idea about what it takes to tackle the topic in a proper manner.
>
> Great!

I have thought some more about it, and have a new idea.

It appears that the only thing in this thread there is a clear
disagreement about is the original subject, i.e. the language chooser at
login.

As regards language related bits and pieces, there is a need to refactor
the code. I now think it's desirable that such refactoring is done as
soon as possible, since it probably would make talk about ways to set or
change language settings easier. Please see
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2011-July/003165.html

>> Can't help worrying a little about the time constraints, though. I
>> spent quite some time during the Natty development cycle to help fix a
>> bunch of bugs about language and locale issues. I'd hate to see
>> Oneiric be shipped with similar bugs as those that were recently
>> resolved because the work is rushed unnecessarily.
>
> Fair enough, and thanks for working on those bugs. Do test cases exist
> for checking that your hard work does not regress?

No, but the resulting functionality is documented:
ghelp:language-selector

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