FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Ubuntu > Ubuntu Desktop

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 03-04-2009, 03:30 PM
Matthew Paul Thomas
 
Default fontconfig vs. Gnome

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Rick Spencer wrote on 03/03/09 18:53:
>...
> === Arne Goetje (ArneGoetje) ===
> * call with Alexander Sack about the fontconfig package:
> * the fontconfig package continues to set a basic desktop setting
> * the font packages should be updated to set fontconfig settings
> depending on the font and pixel size used. This affects hinting, hinting
> style and anti-aliasing settings
> * asac will try to dig through the gnome font settings code and add a
> checkbox "Use system settings", which will use fontconfig's settings
> instead of Gnome's
>...

"Excuse me, ma'am, I've set the font rendering to 'Best shapes', is that
okay?"

"I don't know, what are the other choices?"

"'Monochrome', 'Best contrast', 'Subpixel smoothing', and 'Use system
settings'."

"'Use system settings'? What does that mean?"

"For you, ma'am, it means 'Subpixel smoothing'."

"But 'Subpixel smoothing' is one of the other options you just gave me,
isn't it?"

"Yes, it is."

<pause>

"So ... why did you offer it with two different names? Were you trying
to trick me?"

"Not at all. That's just the one we recommend for you, so we want to
make it twice as likely that you'll choose it."

"Oh, for heaven's sake. You could have just *told* me that you recommend
it ... But wait a minute. If you recommend 'Subpixel smoothing' for me,
why on earth did you set it to 'Best shapes' to start with?"

"I'm terribly sorry, ma'am, one of my other personalities was dominant
when I did that."

<longer pause>

"Your ... other ... personalities?"

"Yes, ma'am, that was my 'Gnome' personality. Right now I'm in my
'fontconfig' personality."

"You have the personality of a gnome? ... No, wait, don't bother
answering that question. I'm leaving."

- --
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkmurIUACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecqszACgid/s1NKwre0xi9jGzSqtwfoq
GyMAn3otIQy6J+bUHPjy0BxVHL5+bd4D
=u0w/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
ubuntu-desktop mailing list
ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
 
Old 03-05-2009, 12:39 PM
Alexander Sack
 
Default fontconfig vs. Gnome

On Wed, Mar 04, 2009 at 04:30:04PM +0000, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Rick Spencer wrote on 03/03/09 18:53:
> >...
> > === Arne Goetje (ArneGoetje) ===
> > * call with Alexander Sack about the fontconfig package:
> > * the fontconfig package continues to set a basic desktop setting
> > * the font packages should be updated to set fontconfig settings
> > depending on the font and pixel size used. This affects hinting, hinting
> > style and anti-aliasing settings
> > * asac will try to dig through the gnome font settings code and add a
> > checkbox "Use system settings", which will use fontconfig's settings
> > instead of Gnome's
> >...
>
> "Excuse me, ma'am, I've set the font rendering to 'Best shapes', is that
> okay?"

"Hi, just wanted to tell you that I upgraded to jaunty and now my
fonts look great everywhere - on all my monitors, even in all apps I
use. I am so happy that i don't need to fiddle with font configuration
- which i previously found to be hidden in the Appearence preference
dialog. BTW, I looked there now, but I will just leave the 'Automatic
shapes" checkbox enabled as it seems to do the right thing for
me. Thanks for your great work!"


- Alexander


--
ubuntu-desktop mailing list
ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
 
Old 03-05-2009, 12:51 PM
Ilmari Vacklin
 
Default fontconfig vs. Gnome

2009/3/5 Alexander Sack <asac@ubuntu.com>:
> "Hi, just wanted to tell you that I upgraded to jaunty and now my
> fonts look great everywhere - on all my *monitors, even in all apps I
> use. I am so happy that i don't need to fiddle with font configuration
> - which i previously found to be hidden in the Appearence preference
> dialog. BTW, I looked there now, but I will just leave the 'Automatic
> shapes" checkbox enabled as it seems to do the right thing for
> me. Thanks for your great work!"

I don't much trust this argument, since by default the fonts on Ubuntu
look horrid to me. I prefer disabling hinting altogether.

Is this feature meant for administrators?

In principle it is a good feature, but I would like to make the
fontconfig configuration more obvious: expose a graphical configurator
for it.

--
Ilmari Vacklin

--
ubuntu-desktop mailing list
ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
 
Old 03-05-2009, 02:05 PM
Scott James Remnant
 
Default fontconfig vs. Gnome

On Wed, 2009-03-04 at 16:30 +0000, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> "Excuse me, ma'am, I've set the font rendering to 'Best shapes', is that
> okay?"
>
> "I don't know, what are the other choices?"
>
> "'Monochrome', 'Best contrast', 'Subpixel smoothing', and 'Use system
> settings'."
>
> "'Use system settings'? What does that mean?"
>
> "For you, ma'am, it means 'Subpixel smoothing'."
>
> "But 'Subpixel smoothing' is one of the other options you just gave me,
> isn't it?"
>
YOU HAVE FIVE NEW UPDATES.
> "Yes, it is."
>
> <pause>
>
> "So ... why did you offer it with two different names? Were you trying
> to trick me?"
>
> "Not at all. That's just the one we recommend for you, so we want to
> make it twice as likely that you'll choose it."
>
> "Oh, for heaven's sake. You could have just *told* me that you recommend
> it ... But wait a minute. If you recommend 'Subpixel smoothing' for me,
> why on earth did you set it to 'Best shapes' to start with?"
>
> "I'm terribly sorry, ma'am, one of my other personalities was dominant
> when I did that."
>
> <longer pause>
>
> "Your ... other ... personalities?"
>
> "Yes, ma'am, that was my 'Gnome' personality. Right now I'm in my
> 'fontconfig' personality."
>
> "You have the personality of a gnome? ... No, wait, don't bother
> answering that question. I'm leaving."

Scott
--
Scott James Remnant
scott@canonical.com
--
ubuntu-desktop mailing list
ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
 
Old 03-05-2009, 02:57 PM
Alexander Sack
 
Default fontconfig vs. Gnome

On Thu, Mar 05, 2009 at 03:51:03PM +0200, Ilmari Vacklin wrote:
> 2009/3/5 Alexander Sack <asac@ubuntu.com>:
> > "Hi, just wanted to tell you that I upgraded to jaunty and now my
> > fonts look great everywhere - on all my *monitors, even in all apps I
> > use. I am so happy that i don't need to fiddle with font configuration
> > - which i previously found to be hidden in the Appearence preference
> > dialog. BTW, I looked there now, but I will just leave the 'Automatic
> > shapes" checkbox enabled as it seems to do the right thing for
> > me. Thanks for your great work!"
>
> I don't much trust this argument, since by default the fonts on Ubuntu
> look horrid to me. I prefer disabling hinting altogether.
>
> Is this feature meant for administrators?

The main driver for looking into this just now was to allow us to ship
configs that automatically adapt to CRT and LCD.

But there is more potential here; for instance, fontconfig allows us
to ship special hinting tweaks considering the individual fonts, sizes
and dpi used.

Of course, admins/users can also tweak fontconfig rules manually if
they want, but for jaunty the main driver for this change is to get
better defaults. Of course, users can still go to the gnome fonts
config and disable automatic to use whatever settings they used there
before.

>
> In principle it is a good feature, but I would like to make the
> fontconfig configuration more obvious: expose a graphical configurator
> for it.
>

I agree that having a more complete configuration UI in gnome which
also speaks fontconfig rules would be a worthwhile thing to have at
some point, but thats not in the pipeline for jaunty.

- Alexander


--
ubuntu-desktop mailing list
ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
 
Old 03-05-2009, 02:58 PM
Alexander Sack
 
Default fontconfig vs. Gnome

On Thu, Mar 05, 2009 at 03:05:14PM +0000, Scott James Remnant wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-03-04 at 16:30 +0000, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> > "Excuse me, ma'am, I've set the font rendering to 'Best shapes', is that
> > okay?"
> >
> > "I don't know, what are the other choices?"
> >
> > "'Monochrome', 'Best contrast', 'Subpixel smoothing', and 'Use system
> > settings'."
> >
> > "'Use system settings'? What does that mean?"
> >
> > "For you, ma'am, it means 'Subpixel smoothing'."
> >
> > "But 'Subpixel smoothing' is one of the other options you just gave me,
> > isn't it?"
> >
> YOU HAVE FIVE NEW UPDATES.

lol, can we now go back to technical discussions on this list and
leave the dramaturgy writing to all the great poets around the world
?

Thanks!

- Alexander


--
ubuntu-desktop mailing list
ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
 
Old 03-05-2009, 04:29 PM
Matthew Paul Thomas
 
Default fontconfig vs. Gnome

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Alexander Sack wrote on 05/03/09 13:39:
>...
> "Hi, just wanted to tell you that I upgraded to jaunty and now my
> fonts look great everywhere - on all my monitors, even in all apps I
> use. I am so happy that i don't need to fiddle with font configuration
> - which i previously found to be hidden in the Appearence preference
> dialog. BTW, I looked there now, but I will just leave the 'Automatic
> shapes" checkbox enabled as it seems to do the right thing for
> me. Thanks for your great work!"
>...

The point is, there are *multiple* better ways of doing that than by
presenting two options that do exactly the same thing.

Cheers
- --
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkmwDAEACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecrchwCgqLy9UuPQwR xV4of9ligJFy7F
b3AAn2o0C3i0bySQ6olhyxinNupS9D7W
=2iJW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
ubuntu-desktop mailing list
ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
 
Old 03-05-2009, 04:44 PM
Rick Spencer
 
Default fontconfig vs. Gnome

On Thursday 05 March 2009 09:29:42 Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> Alexander Sack wrote on 05/03/09 13:39:
> >...
> > "Hi, just wanted to tell you that I upgraded to jaunty and now my
> > fonts look great everywhere - on all my monitors, even in all apps I
> > use. I am so happy that i don't need to fiddle with font configuration
> > - which i previously found to be hidden in the Appearence preference
> > dialog. BTW, I looked there now, but I will just leave the 'Automatic
> > shapes" checkbox enabled as it seems to do the right thing for
> > me. Thanks for your great work!"
> >...
>
> The point is, there are *multiple* better ways of doing that than by
> presenting two options that do exactly the same thing.
>
> Cheers
> --
> Matthew Paul Thomas
> http://mpt.net.nz/
mpt -

Could you please tell us exactly how you think this should work? What is your
preference for how the user should configure the options?

Cheers, Rick

--
ubuntu-desktop mailing list
ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
 
Old 03-05-2009, 05:36 PM
Matthew Paul Thomas
 
Default fontconfig vs. Gnome

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Rick Spencer wrote on 05/03/09 17:44:
>...
> Could you please tell us exactly how you think this should work? What
> is your preference for how the user should configure the options?
>...

If we think the setting recommended by fontconfig is likely good, it
should be the radio button selected by default in the Font preferences.
For example, if fontconfig recommends subpixel smoothing, "Subpixel
smoothing" should be selected by default in the Font preferences.

To cater for the case of someone who changed the setting days or weeks
ago and isn't sure what to change it back to, the string
" (recommended)" could follow the label for whichever option is
recommended by fontconfig. For example, if fontconfig recommends Best
shapes for your display, that option could appear as "Best shapes
(recommended)".

If fontconfig allows other useful options not available in the Font
preferences (such as a minimum size for anti-aliasing text, or never
anti-aliasing kanji), then they should be made available individually in
a future release. A take-it-or-leave-it "Automatic" checkbox would not
be an obvious way of setting those options either.

Cheers
- --
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkmwG4MACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecpraACfbec41osS8W SAgPEVEYEqPVZP
Z3sAnjT9sSMS84gN/FEYQjdsYJV7WbMn
=3FkI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
ubuntu-desktop mailing list
ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
 
Old 03-05-2009, 06:30 PM
Alexander Sack
 
Default fontconfig vs. Gnome

On Thu, Mar 05, 2009 at 06:36:07PM +0000, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Rick Spencer wrote on 05/03/09 17:44:
> >...
> > Could you please tell us exactly how you think this should work? What
> > is your preference for how the user should configure the options?
> >...
>
> If we think the setting recommended by fontconfig is likely good, it
> should be the radio button selected by default in the Font preferences.
> For example, if fontconfig recommends subpixel smoothing, "Subpixel
> smoothing" should be selected by default in the Font preferences.
>
> To cater for the case of someone who changed the setting days or weeks
> ago and isn't sure what to change it back to, the string
> " (recommended)" could follow the label for whichever option is
> recommended by fontconfig. For example, if fontconfig recommends Best
> shapes for your display, that option could appear as "Best shapes
> (recommended)".
>
> If fontconfig allows other useful options not available in the Font
> preferences (such as a minimum size for anti-aliasing text, or never
> anti-aliasing kanji), then they should be made available individually in
> a future release. A take-it-or-leave-it "Automatic" checkbox would not
> be an obvious way of setting those options either.


Thanks for finally providing some input . Anyway, I prefer
incremental changes that bring us forward instead of not doing
anything because we are blocked on ETOOMUCHTODO, or even
EITSNOTUNDERSTOOD.

That said, nothing is perfect and there are always ways to do things
better, its just that you need a plan (and not just an idea) as in the
end someone has to do the groundwork and implement it.

In the long run gnome should speak fontconfig, I agree, but for now my
approach seems reasonable, and honestly, its not really bad UI wise
either. Also we need to learn what particular parts of fontconfig
users would want to tweak. Offering everything would definitly lead to
UI bloat. For now, its just automatic, vs. manual and using a checkbox
for that isn't that bad - I like that and its a good start to build on
top.

So my suggestion: we do it as I suggested (we can always tweak here and
there if its really a bad thing) now; then based on the experiences
and feedback we get out of this, we can discuss and improve and
finally come up with a perfect gnome UI for this, make a spec out of
it and implement it.

- Alexander


--
ubuntu-desktop mailing list
ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 09:30 PM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org