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Old 01-21-2009, 10:45 AM
Martin Pitt
 
Default QuitAppletPlus is ready for your feedback!

Hello Roman,

thanks for the introduction. I am CC'ing the -desktop list, since the
discussion is a bit better suited there.

Roman Friesen [2009-01-18 12:32 +0100]:
> It's not a replacement for the current Intrepid fast-switch-user applet,
> the ideas from both should be merged.

Code-wise, is that a fork of f-u-s-a, or a rewrite?

> - quit actions are easy available, without overloading the view

That is also the case with the current fusa applet, right?

> - more intuitive action names and icons for inexperienced users

I don't think it should be considered a feature to use different
strings in different projects. This is certainly a point where both
should be merged.

Currently hard to compare for me, since my fusa is in German, while
your screenshots are in English, but they do not seem to be
dramatically different to me?

> - configurable quit applet menu design/behavior

That's certainly a nice thing to have.

> - protection against accidentally choosing wrong actions without "Are
> you sure?"-confirmations

Likewise, although our design guys might have an explicit reason for
not having an extra confirmation dialog by default?

> - alternative approach to protect other logged-in users if you perform
> shut down or restart

How does that work in your project? ATM consolekit requires you to
enter your password to "override" and shut down if other people are
still logged in.

> - graphical countdown by automatic quit

The current logout dialog in system -> Log out counts down in steps of
10 seconds. If you have a similar one, both dialogs should be made
consistent.

> - and finally you can power off the computer only with one mouse click!

Doesn't that contradict with your explicit confirmation dialogs?
Current fusa requires two mouse clicks, which doesn't seem to be
excessive for something you'd only do once a day?

This certainly has some interesting ideas, not to the least having
some icons to the shutdown/restart/etc. actions, plus configurability.

It would be great to merge some features into fusa itself, I don't
think it makes too much sense to have a completely separate
alternative applet, since we couldn't use it by default.

Thank you for working on this!

Martin
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Old 01-21-2009, 11:50 AM
Siegfried-Angel
 
Default QuitAppletPlus is ready for your feedback!

2009/1/21 Martin Pitt <martin.pitt@ubuntu.com>:
>> - protection against accidentally choosing wrong actions without "Are
>> you sure?"-confirmations
>
> Likewise, although our design guys might have an explicit reason for
> not having an extra confirmation dialog by default?

If I remember correctly (but I may be wrong), there were plans to let
the fast-user-switch-applet show the same dialogue as the options in
the System menu, but that couldn't be finished on time for Intrepid.

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Old 01-21-2009, 08:13 PM
Roman Friesen
 
Default QuitAppletPlus is ready for your feedback!

Am Mittwoch, den 21.01.2009, 12:45 +0100 schrieb Martin Pitt:
> thanks for the introduction. I am CC'ing the -desktop list, since the
> discussion is a bit better suited there.
Should we discuss this topic only on the desktop list further on?


> > It's not a replacement for the current Intrepid fast-switch-user applet,
> > the ideas from both should be merged.
>
> Code-wise, is that a fork of f-u-s-a, or a rewrite?
Neither first nor the second. It is only a graphical prototype (mock-up)
written in python. I just thought it would be a better way to present
this ideas.


> > - quit actions are easy available, without overloading the view
>
> That is also the case with the current fusa applet, right?
I'm sorry, I didn't mention it directly. If I say "Ubuntu quit applet",
I mean the whole concept including f-u-s-a and the quit options in the
System menu. The f-u-s-a is fine. But, I think, the dialogs in the
System menu are not, because it's not common to place buttons such as in
this dialogs, I think it's a a hard break of the usability.


> > - more intuitive action names and icons for inexperienced users
>
> I don't think it should be considered a feature to use different
> strings in different projects. This is certainly a point where both
> should be merged.
> Currently hard to compare for me, since my fusa is in German, while
> your screenshots are in English, but they do not seem to be
> dramatically different to me?
The German translations are more human than the English original. For
the English I suggest: "Shut Down" -> "Power Off", "Suspend (to RAM)" ->
"Standby". But it's not only translations or icons, please look also,
how the "Hibernate" action can be made more intuitive:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuitAppletPlus#How%20to%20present%20technical%
20actions%20for%20inexperienced%20users


> > - configurable quit applet menu design/behavior
>
> That's certainly a nice thing to have.
Thank you


> > - protection against accidentally choosing wrong actions without "Are
> > you sure?"-confirmations
>
> Likewise, although our design guys might have an explicit reason for
> not having an extra confirmation dialog by default?
I think it's a very good idea for not having confirmation dialogs in f-u-s-a.
In the QuitAppletPlus there isn't any confirmation dialog too (the quit
dialog is not a confirmation dialog).


> > - alternative approach to protect other logged-in users if you perform
> > shut down or restart
>
> How does that work in your project? ATM consolekit requires you to
> enter your password to "override" and shut down if other people are
> still logged in.
Please use the "Test scenarios" dialog (via the applet context menu) in
order to simulate this scenario.
If you mean the approach description, you can find that here (have I
misunderstood your question?):
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuitAppletPlus#How%20to%20protect%20another%
20logged-in%20users


> > - graphical countdown by automatic quit
>
> The current logout dialog in system -> Log out counts down in steps of
> 10 seconds. If you have a similar one, both dialogs should be made
> consistent.
It's just a progress bar (counts down in 1 second steps). Maybe a
progress bar is not the best choice, but I think a graphical countdown
is much better than the text based countdown (I didn't even notice this
countdown at first...).
You can also stop the countdown or just turn it of in the applet
preferences. For more details please see here:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuitAppletPlus#Automatic%20Shut%20Down



> > - and finally you can power off the computer only with one mouse click!
>
> Doesn't that contradict with your explicit confirmation dialogs?
You cannot perform this actions by mistake, because you have to hold the
related keys, therefore the confirmation dialogs are not needed here.
(Per design there is not any confirmation dialogs in the QuitAppletPlus)


> Current fusa requires two mouse clicks, which doesn't seem to be
> excessive for something you'd only do once a day?
You can also lock the screen with one mouse click. But you are right,
it's not a must, but I think it could be a nice feature for Ubuntu
release notes:
"With Ubuntu you can power off or lock the screen only with one click!"

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuitAppletPlus#One%20Click%20Actions


> This certainly has some interesting ideas, not to the least having
> some icons to the shutdown/restart/etc. actions, plus configurability.
>
> It would be great to merge some features into fusa itself, I don't
> think it makes too much sense to have a completely separate
> alternative applet, since we couldn't use it by default.
As I have written above, it is only a graphical prototype, so there is
only one merge direction -> to f-u-s-a )


> Thank you for working on this!
Thank you too


Roman


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Old 01-21-2009, 08:23 PM
Roman Friesen
 
Default QuitAppletPlus is ready for your feedback!

Am Mittwoch, den 21.01.2009, 13:50 +0100 schrieb Siegfried-Angel:
> 2009/1/21 Martin Pitt <martin.pitt@ubuntu.com>:
> >> - protection against accidentally choosing wrong actions without "Are
> >> you sure?"-confirmations
> >
> > Likewise, although our design guys might have an explicit reason for
> > not having an extra confirmation dialog by default?
>
> If I remember correctly (but I may be wrong), there were plans to let
> the fast-user-switch-applet show the same dialogue as the options in
> the System menu, but that couldn't be finished on time for Intrepid.
Oh, please no...

It's not common to place buttons such as in this dialogs, it's only a
single place with such layout I know in Gnome... I think it's a a hard
break of the usability.
GNOME Human Interface Guidelines / Make Your Application Consistent:
http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/principles-consistency.html.en


Roman


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Old 01-21-2009, 08:54 PM
"Siegfried Gevatter (RainCT)"
 
Default QuitAppletPlus is ready for your feedback!

2009/1/21 Roman Friesen <ubuntu@frolo.de>:
>> If I remember correctly (but I may be wrong), there were plans to let
>> the fast-user-switch-applet show the same dialogue as the options in
>> the System menu, but that couldn't be finished on time for Intrepid.
> Oh, please no...
>
> It's not common to place buttons such as in this dialogs, it's only a
> single place with such layout I know in Gnome... I think it's a a hard
> break of the usability.

I don't want to offend you, but personally I find that the dialogue in
the System menu is much more usable than your proposal.Yours offers
quite some additional features, but IMHO it is not something which
should be on my grandma's desktop (despite this, I'm happy to see the
initiative that you've put into this, and and if it's not used by
default I think it may still be provided as an optional package for
those users who like it).

By the way, there's a specification about this topic on
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/ExitStrategy. The intention
there is to remove options, not to add more.

--
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Old 01-22-2009, 07:35 AM
Markus Hitter
 
Default QuitAppletPlus is ready for your feedback!

Am 21.01.2009 um 22:23 schrieb Roman Friesen:

> Am Mittwoch, den 21.01.2009, 13:50 +0100 schrieb Siegfried-Angel:
>> 2009/1/21 Martin Pitt <martin.pitt@ubuntu.com>:
>>>> - protection against accidentally choosing wrong actions without
>>>> "Are
>>>> you sure?"-confirmations
>>>
>>> Likewise, although our design guys might have an explicit reason for
>>> not having an extra confirmation dialog by default?
>>
>> If I remember correctly (but I may be wrong), there were plans to let
>> the fast-user-switch-applet show the same dialogue as the options in
>> the System menu, but that couldn't be finished on time for Intrepid.
> Oh, please no...
>
> It's not common to place buttons such as in this dialogs, it's only a
> single place with such layout I know in Gnome... I think it's a a hard
> break of the usability.

Apple Mac OS X has such confirmation dialogs as well, but only for
actions which have potential data loss (log out, power off) and with
an expiration timer of 120 seconds. On expiration, the requested
action is taken, so you can select shut down and walk away to find
your Mac turned off later. That's all Mac OS X 10.4, I don't know
about 10.5.

Confirmation of potential data loss is a good idea, IMHO. Offering a
selection dialog after the user has (pre-)selected his choice in the
menu, isn't.


MarKus

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Old 01-22-2009, 08:10 PM
Roman Friesen
 
Default QuitAppletPlus is ready for your feedback!

Am Mittwoch, den 21.01.2009, 22:54 +0100 schrieb Siegfried Gevatter
(RainCT):
> > It's not common to place buttons such as in this dialogs, it's only a
> > single place with such layout I know in Gnome... I think it's a a hard
> > break of the usability.
>
> I don't want to offend you, but personally I find that the dialogue in
> the System menu is much more usable than your proposal.Yours offers
> quite some additional features, but IMHO it is not something which
> should be on my grandma's desktop
I think is just matter of taste, everything has its advantages and
disadvantages. We (people) are different and have different needs, and I
think this is so well


> (despite this, I'm happy to see the
> initiative that you've put into this, and and if it's not used by
> default I think it may still be provided as an optional package for
> those users who like it).
It's only a prototype (mock-up), so it would be make no sense to provide
a package for common users. There is this applet prototype _only_ for
one reason - to present this ideas to the Ubuntu (desktop) developers.
Then this ideas may be used or not... It depends only on you...


> By the way, there's a specification about this topic on
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/ExitStrategy. The intention
> there is to remove options, not to add more.
It's very interesting ideas, I knew about this specification, you can even find my comment on this site
It was also the initial point for me to analyze this subject and to work
on an alternative approach. (nearly one year ago)


Thank you for your comment!

Roman


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Old 01-22-2009, 08:45 PM
Roman Friesen
 
Default QuitAppletPlus is ready for your feedback!

Am Donnerstag, den 22.01.2009, 09:35 +0100 schrieb Markus Hitter:
> > It's not common to place buttons such as in this dialogs, it's only a
> > single place with such layout I know in Gnome... I think it's a a hard
> > break of the usability.
>
> Apple Mac OS X has such confirmation dialogs as well, but only for
> actions which have potential data loss (log out, power off) and with
> an expiration timer of 120 seconds. On expiration, the requested
> action is taken, so you can select shut down and walk away to find
> your Mac turned off later. That's all Mac OS X 10.4, I don't know
> about 10.5.
This countdown is really very handy indeed, the QuitAppletPlus includes
this feature as well (you can actually choose between 3, 10, 30 or 60
seconds).
Regarding to the dialog layout (with buttons only), as you probably read
in the previous answer to the Siegfried Gevatter's email, I think it's
just matter of taste. I don't like it, you like it, somebody doesn't
like both )


> Confirmation of potential data loss is a good idea, IMHO. Offering a
> selection dialog after the user has (pre-)selected his choice in the
> menu, isn't.
The quit dialog in QuitAppletPlus includes among other things this
feature too. It collects together all "dangerous" actions you mentioned
above (log out, shut down) and restart, so you cannot perform those by
mistake directly from the menu. Then in most cases you want to power
off, therefore it's a preselected choice in the dialog, so you need to
press the "OK" button or just let work the countdown...


Thank you for your comment!

Roman


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