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Matthew Paul Thomas 01-15-2009 06:33 PM

Please Comment: Proposal to change the name of Applications -> Add/Remove...
 
On Jan 15, 2009, at 7:00 PM, Rick Spencer wrote:


On 01/15/2009 10:46 AM, Aaron Toponce wrote:


Except those who are coming from Windows, which is a larger userbase
than those coming from the iPhone or Android markets, are used to the
Add/Remove programs in the Control Panel.


Actually, this has gotten kind of muddled in Windows. It is now
something called "Programs and Features", which is yet another control
panel that launches wizards for individual applications that you may
have installed (or can install depending if you are in a corporate
environment that supports it).
...


And even when it was called "Add/Remove Programs", it was
overwhelmingly used for uninstalling programs, not for installing them.
It offered no selection of programs you could install.


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"petr bug" 01-15-2009 07:17 PM

Please Comment: Proposal to change the name of Applications -> Add/Remove...
 
Dereck <dereck@gmail.com>
> "Software Library" reflects what it really is IMHO.

Or Program Catalog or Application Repository (a packager's preferred :-) ) or

Gadgets Database or some other combination. People usually do not care about

name of a tool as long as it does what they want. And as long as they can

find the right tool based on what they want.

Perhaps users want a "Software Library" but certainly they want to "Add or

Remove Programs".

Once they see "Add or Remove Programs" they realize a mental match and click

it. Title of the window that appears next is less important - they already

know it is related to adding or removing programs, as long as the window

appears before they loose track of what effect was caused by which click (few

seconds).

Tomasz Dominikowski:
> I don't think Ubuntu should be
> influenced by design decisions in a single phone (iPhone) and a niche
> (for now) phone platform.

Partially valid. Ubuntu should be influenced if a) the design is clever or b)

makes transition easier for many users and is not more stupid than current

design. However there are still too few users of iPod or Android and I

believe the proposed name is less clever.

> I would suggest focusing on things that are really broken.

Matter of opinion. Example:

1) Abiword crashes under certain circumstances.
2) Friend of mine could not establish openvpn connection because VPN wizard

asked him questions he did not understand although the fields were not

necessary.

Most coders I met assign higher priority to a crash (no matter how rare) than

to any user-interaction problem.

2009/1/15 Rick Spencer <rick.spencer@canonical.com>:
> I think the proposal addresses more than a usability problem, I think it
> was put forth also to capitalize on a perception opportunity. In other
> words, perhaps having a "place" to go is something that users think is
> rather cool. We have such a place, but we don't position it as such.

Propagating a feature (a name for "place") is good for news announcement and

for word of mouth on forums, there is to be read not to be used.

In short: Keep the current one, though I appreciate the initiative.

Petr

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Aaron Toponce 01-15-2009 07:42 PM

Please Comment: Proposal to change the name of Applications -> Add/Remove...
 
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> And even when it was called "Add/Remove Programs", it was overwhelmingly
> used for uninstalling programs, not for installing them. It offered no
> selection of programs you could install.

Yes, you can install software in the "Add/Remove Programs" utility in
the control panel. I believe they're called "components" or something to
that effect. It's just not games, office productivity software, or web
browsers. But, nonetheless, you can install software.

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Celeste Lyn Paul 01-15-2009 08:15 PM

Please Comment: Proposal to change the name of Applications -> Add/Remove...
 
On Thursday 15 January 2009 03:17:34 pm petr bug wrote:
> Dereck <dereck@gmail.com>
>
> > "Software Library" reflects what it really is IMHO.
>
> Or Program Catalog or Application Repository (a packager's preferred :-) )
> or

You know, I was sitting here trying to think of alternatives to Library and I
think Catalog works better. I like the sound of "Application Catalog".
Library seems to play too much on metaphor, but Catalog has a similar
feeling/meaning without invoking too much real world meaning.


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Sebastian Heinlein 01-16-2009 07:42 PM

Please Comment: Proposal to change the name of Applications -> Add/Remove...
 
Am Donnerstag, den 15.01.2009, 20:15 +0100 schrieb Oliver Grawert:
> Am Donnerstag, den 15.01.2009, 11:01 -0800 schrieb Rick Spencer:
> > On 01/15/2009 10:53 AM, Oliver Grawert wrote:
> > > i doubt she would have that thorough understanding from an opaque name
> > > like "software library"
> > Interesting, so you feel that "software library" is opaque. Perhaps
> > there is another "place" name that would have worked for her?
> well, the thing is that it isnt a "place" but the button in the menu to
> add or remove menuitems. for her it directly does what she expects it to
> do and she immediately understands the concept because the app itself
> visually connects to teh menu structure.
> i'm not sure she would understand the concept of a "software place" as
> replacement that easily ...

I can only second Oliver.

You should also care about the existing users. Why confuse them with
this naming change?

Working on having only a single representation of applications on the
system is a more worthy target: Currently we have got the menu item and
the item in the add/remove dialog. Why not use the same object to start
and remove applications and therefor renaming "add/remove..." to
"install...".

AFAIK gnome-main-menu of Novell tries to take this approach.

By the way ellipses are used to show the user that a menu entry requires
further input. The user interface of gnome-app-install is the one of an
elaborated dialog and not the one of a full application which you would
expect from a "software library" menu entry.

Cheers,

Sebastian


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Sebastian Heinlein 01-17-2009 03:23 AM

Please Comment: Proposal to change the name of Applications -> Add/Remove...
 
Am Donnerstag, den 15.01.2009, 20:15 +0100 schrieb Oliver Grawert:
> Am Donnerstag, den 15.01.2009, 11:01 -0800 schrieb Rick Spencer:
> > On 01/15/2009 10:53 AM, Oliver Grawert wrote:
> > > i doubt she would have that thorough understanding from an opaque name
> > > like "software library"
> > Interesting, so you feel that "software library" is opaque. Perhaps
> > there is another "place" name that would have worked for her?
> well, the thing is that it isnt a "place" but the button in the menu to
> add or remove menuitems. for her it directly does what she expects it to
> do and she immediately understands the concept because the app itself
> visually connects to teh menu structure.
> i'm not sure she would understand the concept of a "software place" as
> replacement that easily ...

I can only second Oliver.

You should also care about the existing users. Why confuse them with
this naming change?

Working on having only a single representation of applications on the
system is a more worthy target: Currently we have got the menu item and
the item in the add/remove dialog. Why not use the same object to start
and remove applications and therefor renaming "add/remove..." to
"install...".

AFAIK gnome-main-menu of Novell tries to take this approach.

By the way ellipses are used to show the user that a menu entry requires
further input. The user interface of gnome-app-install is the one of an
elaborated dialog and not the one of a full application which you would
expect from a "software library" menu entry.

Cheers,

Sebastian


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Tristan Wibberley 01-18-2009 04:03 AM

Please Comment: Proposal to change the name of Applications -> Add/Remove...
 
On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 19:53 +0100, Oliver Grawert wrote:

> Am Donnerstag, den 15.01.2009, 10:29 -0800 schrieb Rick Spencer:

> > A proposal has been put forward to change the name of the
> > "Add/Remove..." menu item.

...

> Add/Remove was initially designed to refer to the menu

It seems it no longer does that. I think it should return to that
purpose and remain "Add/Remove..."

Here's an example of it not doing what it should, it shows that I have
p7zip installed, yet there is no icon to start the p7zip application.

Packages should be divided between "GUI applications", "cmdline
applications", "features" and others that only show in
synaptic/aptitude/etc.


* The "Add/Remove..." button should remain.
* There should /also/ be a software library that shows the applications
from "Add/Remove..." but also shows cmdline apps and features
* There should be buttons to switch between the two UIs (ie,
"Add/Remove..." should have a button to go to the software library and
vice versa.
* Any applications that support plugins should provide a link to the
Software Library to browse their plugins.
* Any installed "feature" should cause relevant plugins to be installed
for all relevant installed applications. If a new plugin is added to the
repos it should be installed as an update of the feature, and if a new
application is installed, the relevant plugins for all installed
features should be installed. This would need dpkg to support "reverse
dependencies" of the form "RDepends: gstreamer & mp3" to indicate that
if you have any applications that depend on gstreamer and you have the
mp3 feature installed, you should get the package with that RDepends
(which would be a gstreamer mp3 plugin in this case).
* The Ubuntu distro upgrade GUI should be exposed from the Software
Library.
* Google should offer a link for any search terms that match
"Add/Remove..." and "Software Library" items that will cause firefox to
install the appropriate application/feature directly from the configured
Ubuntu repositories rather than them going on a wild goose chase
downloading stuff via links from who-knows-whom. Perhaps firefox should
tell google what repositories are configured somehow.

This is how I'd like my computer and my parent's computer to behave
(which I have to help them with when it is difficult).

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communication.



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Tristan Wibberley 01-18-2009 04:17 AM

Please Comment: Proposal to change the name of Applications -> Add/Remove...
 
On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 21:17 +0100, petr bug wrote:
> Dereck <dereck@gmail.com>
> > "Software Library" reflects what it really is IMHO.
>
> Or Program Catalog or Application Repository (a packager's preferred :-) ) or


Aha! Now "Catalogue" will make sense to most people even more than
"Add/Remove..."

The catalogue will support returns (deinstallation :). Make sure that
the catalogue says "Free" next to each item otherwise people will be
nervous that they're going to be charged and can't find out how much.
Also "Free" in a catalogue sounds better than items obtained from a
simple free service.

It could also support more than just applications (and "features" from
my previous email) like gnome-art desktops, gtk themes, etc.

so call it "Ubuntu Catalogue".

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Any opinion expressed is mine (or else I'm playing devils advocate for
the sake of a good argument). My employer had nothing to do with this
communication.



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"Jonas Jørgensen" 01-18-2009 11:21 AM

Please Comment: Proposal to change the name of Applications -> Add/Remove...
 
2009/1/15 Oliver Grawert <ogra@ubuntu.com>:
> imho this feature (and its naming as well as its design) is one of the
> most powerful UIs we have in ubuntu.
>
> Add/Remove was initially designed to refer to the menu and intrestingly
> my completely computer illiterate 75 year old mother instantly
> understands that she can add and remove applications to/from her menu
> with it, it reflects the menu in so many places that she really gets the
> purpose ...
>
> i doubt she would have that thorough understanding from an opaque name
> like "software library"

I have to disagree... "Add/Remove" doesn't really shout "Hey, there's
thousands of free programs for you right here!" in the same way that
something like "Software Library" does.

I'm sure what your mother wants isn't really "to add an application",
but rather just "an application". There's a difference. Why bother
users with terminology related to _adding_ software, instead of just
focusing on the software itself (rather than the action of adding it)?
"Here's a lot of software!" versus "Here's a tool for finding
software".

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